Chuck said:
Also, don't forget that Scarborough already has the subway, and has far superior GO service than any part of York Region.
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Objection on the "far superior GO service" part. Central and north-eastern Scarborough has no GO trains, only two stops of the infrequent, mixed-traffic GO buses. Western Scarborough has the Stouffville line, with service as lousy as York Region's. Only the southern and eastern parts of Scarborough are close enough to the Lakeshore East GO stations and a relatively frequent service.

Furthermore, York Region has the "50c-to-GO" fare integration arrangement (subsidized by GO, not by YRT), local bus routes optimized to serve GO stations, and ample parking lots for those who prefer to drive to a station.

In contrast, Scarborough residents have to pay full second fare for taking TTC to GO; the local transit network is not integrated with GO (with the exception of Kennedy Stn); and there aren't many parking spaces at GO stations within Scarborough.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
For what it's worth the ROW planned for Yonge to be used by VIVA (and YRT/Steeles) could well have been in the final construction phases had we not suddenly changed our minds and wanted the subway and skipping the intermediate transit services. Had we just stopped bitching and started building back then we would have had something tangible today, rather than future promises.
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That's true, but only to a point. There's a real reason people "changed their minds" about halting the BRT lanes. It wasn't "bitching" that stopped them, but the province announcing the subway was a priority project.

It made sense to hold off, at the time. When McGuinty announced Move Ontario it was with the (incorrect) assumption he'd be able to get the feds onside. If they'd come through with the $6B he hoped for, that subway would now be under construction.

McGuinty's idea was for the province to pick up the traditional municipal 1/3 of capital costs so things could get moving.

We won't see that kind of offer again which is why it was so hypocritical for Tim Hudak to tell Toronotnians how much they need subways, using McGuinty's money, which he never would have given them a cent of.

But, now that money is gone and Ottawa continues to deny the importance of transit in developing Canada's urban centres. That's not York Region's fault, especially given the ridership on the corridor. BRT would be a stopgap that would fundamentally alter the streetscape. (And it's in YR's interest to keep the subway on the front burner instead of throwing up their arms and falling back on BRT at this point.)

Also, Move2020 came at the same time as Places to Grow which had big implications (ie 50,000+ new residents) for the corridor. BRT simply wouldn't cut it though, yes, it's better than nothing. But it's that "Well, it's better than nothing," attitude that has to end if the GTA is going to move forward at all.
 
Common now ... there are many streets throughout the GTA that have many more condos and offices and are not served by higher order transit.

5/10+ condos don't automatically justify subways. Office use is more important here anyway, and while there is a lot proposed for Hi-way 7 and Yonge that's preliminary. The few office components / developments we're seeing including in building from Finch north to Hi-way 7 are minor.


BTW; I'm not at all arguing against the extension :) But if you keep posting new condo proposals that really doesn't justify this starting any faster or slower. Heck a good chunk of the folks in those condos probably work off transit route anyway.

I know several people who've bought into World on Yonge and non plan on taking transit, even if there was a subway. They work somewhere off Hi-way 7. Though I try to convince them to at least try when the BRT is complete.
 
Fair enough - obviously one project is not tipping the scales. But don't doubt the developers are citing the subway when they make their application. The new Markham 2ndary Plan governing the area assumes the subway is coming, as does the Langstaff plan (though it's phased, because the timing is up in the air). I just think on the street people are waiting for it and developers are pouncing on it so you will hit that critical mass sooner rather than later if the subway-oriented development comes without the subway.

If I lived at World on Yonge and worked at Leslie/7-ish, I think transit would be a very viable way to get there (especially once subway and BRT are online). People who wouldn't even consider such a thing, after buying a suburban condo, are living in the past. It's the attitude that has to change but (at the risk of sounding like Rob Ford) I bet they're more likely to take a subway than a BRT, if it gets them where they need to to go. They also might hop on to go to mid-town or downtown. (Also, World on Yonge has an office component though, as you point out, it's not huge by itself.)

Yonge is changing, any way you slice it.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
An article on the conceptual design report...
http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1334219--yonge-subway-s-future-cloudy

And an application for a 21-storey condo a few blocks north of Steeles. These are going to keep coming and the longer the subway isn't there, the bigger the mess will be.

[PDF] http://www2.markham.ca/markham/ccbs...ent Services/pl111025/Frangian 7089 Yonge.pdf
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21 storey condo means what? 150 residents? 1 Bloor East is 70+ and will only have something like 700 units. People around here really overestimate how much demand a couple of condos around a station bring.

To a previous post, I was referring to previous BCA report which had a much lower peak point value within York Region compared to the new 2.5x bigger number in this newer report.
 
Development along a subway line is valuable and beneficial, but by far the most important factor in a subway's ridership is the connecting bus routes. That's why the Yonge extension will be so packed.
 
YRT is going to seriously increase frequencies if and when the Yonge subway extension opens if it wants it to get high ridership. The bus routes on Bathurst (88), Bayview (91), Centre (77), Clark (5) and John (2) will all be feeding this subway extension. Plus the buses on 16th/Rutherford (85) and Major Mackenzie (4) will probably be rerouted to Highway 7/Yonge. YRT will not get high ridership on the subway with 60 minute frequencies on Sunday.

I seriously hope that a big boost in frequencies happens when the Vaughan extension opens. 20 Jane-Concord is the main bus route connecting Highway 7/Jane to Vaughan Mills, Canada's Wonderland and various industrial areas and it needs more frequent service especially on Sunday.
 
The buses in the area are already packed. You would be hard pressed to fit any more down Yonge and into Finch station. After the subway is extended, improved service on connecting routes will add even more riders.
 
andrewpmk said:
YRT is going to seriously increase frequencies if and when the Yonge subway extension opens if it wants it to get high ridership. The bus routes on Bathurst (88), Bayview (91), Centre (77), Clark (5) and John (2) will all be feeding this subway extension. Plus the buses on 16th/Rutherford (85) and Major Mackenzie (4) will probably be rerouted to Highway 7/Yonge. YRT will not get high ridership on the subway with 60 minute frequencies on Sunday.

I seriously hope that a big boost in frequencies happens when the Vaughan extension opens. 20 Jane-Concord is the main bus route connecting Highway 7/Jane to Vaughan Mills, Canada's Wonderland and various industrial areas and it needs more frequent service especially on Sunday.
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Theoretically could they not shift some of the buses that used to run along Yonge to shuttle people to Finch to those connecting routes? Or were the buses that ran along Yonge exclusively VIVA, and not YRT?
 
andrewpmk said:
Plus the buses on 16th/Rutherford (85) and Major Mackenzie (4) will probably be rerouted to Highway 7/Yonge.
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Why would this make any sense? Not everyone wants to go to the subway. People who are going east/west may want to actually go east/west and not be delayed by some detour. It's the reason why our whole road structure is in a grid format in the first place.

If you want to get to the subway, you take the bus to Yonge, and then travel south until Highway 7. Maybe alternative routes (A, B, C) might be possible when frequencies hit a threshold that would make that feasible.

Besides, this is kind of what Viva Purple does when it goes off Highway 7 down Bathurst, and then across Centre to get back to Highway 7. It's annoying and adds about 10-15 minutes to the route, but it works for this specific instance because there is more ridership to pick up at the mall terminal than there currently is along Highway 7 in that area. However you can be sure that there are plenty of people who would drive instead just to avoid wasting those 10-15 minutes on that detour.

gweed123 said:
Theoretically could they not shift some of the buses that used to run along Yonge to shuttle people to Finch to those connecting routes? Or were the buses that ran along Yonge exclusively VIVA, and not YRT?
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YRT and Viva routes co-exist along Yonge to Finch. They would still need to maintain the YRT route along Yonge even after a subway, to accomodate people who don't live near stations, but probably only to Steeles instead and maybe with a lower frequency.
 
xtremesniper said:
YRT and Viva routes co-exist along Yonge to Finch. They would still need to maintain the YRT route along Yonge even after a subway, to accomodate people who don't live near stations, but probably only to Steeles instead and maybe with a lower frequency.
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Gotcha. And the VIVA buses would no longer be needed, so they could be diverted to other VIVA routes. Increased frequency without any significant operational cost (same number of buses and drivers as before).

In fact, it would probably be a reduction in operating costs, because not all of those buses would be redistributed, unless the Yonge Subway extension results in a huge increase in VIVA demand.
 
For the comment regarding packed busses ... that's pushing it and I'm at the viva terminal most days @ Finch. So the viva busses are indeed busy but the other YRT routes are generally OK, during rush hour no seats (but not many if any standing ... on average, there are of course expcetions) and genrally not too busy outside of rush hour at all.
 
xtremesniper said:
If you want to get to the subway, you take the bus to Yonge, and then travel south until Highway 7. Maybe alternative routes (A, B, C) might be possible when frequencies hit a threshold that would make that feasible.
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Actually, it would probably be better to divert the 85 (not 4, too far) to the subway because that would make the route a more manageable length. That's the reason I think the TTC divides the routes at Yonge, even on Steeles, which has to divert down to Finch station.
 
Transportfan said:
Actually, it would probably be better to divert the 85 (not 4, too far) to the subway because that would make the route a more manageable length. That's the reason I think the TTC divides the routes at Yonge, even on Steeles, which has to divert down to Finch station.
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The 85 is already split.

The 85 itself is not (thankfully) for those who actually want or need to travel from Vaughan to Markham without transferring along the same road.

The 85A only services Vaughan and terminates at Yonge.

The 85B services Vaughan up until the Beaver Creek business park (Mural).

I have no idea why there is such a lack of service in Markham for the 85 compared to Vaughan, but perhaps some new developments in the Kennedy and 9th Line areas will change that some day.

Regardless, back on point, like I said I think that it might be possible to throw a A, B, or C route down to the subway, but I sure wouldn't want the standard 85 to change routing.

EDIT: I spoke too soon.

I just bumped into these info sheets for proposed changes to the 85 route, and it looks like they want to permanently split the route into west of Yonge and east of Yonge. http://yrt.ca/en/aboutus/resources/PIC-Boards-004.pdf
 
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