TheTigerMaster said:
Disappointing but not totally unexpected.

It's clear that the trains are going to be completely packed by time they reach Finch. If this line must be built, my preference is to have only every fifth train go north of Finch Ave during rush hour. That would provide a fairly decent headway of eight to ten minutes north of Finch and will allow for some trains to not be full south of Sheppard. Headways can be improved once the DRL is extended to Sheppard and beyond.
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Every fifth.

When I was thinking about the Western leg, I thought it would not be acceptable to send every fourth train north of Downsview, so I suggested every second (http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/16162-Sheppard-Subway-Expansion?p=716009#post716009). If only every fourth train went north of Downsview it would really make the extension look like a waste of money since the full $300M/km is being spent, while getting only 25% of the service. I imagine the same thing would happen at Yonge. Nobody would propose spending full subway costs to achieve 20% capacity. I would guess that maybe a better short-turn station would be built at Steeles and half the train would turn south from there.
 
BurlOak said:
Every fifth.

When I was thinking about the Western leg, I thought it would not be acceptable to send every fourth train north of Downsview, so I suggested every second (http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/16162-Sheppard-Subway-Expansion?p=716009#post716009). If only every fourth train went north of Downsview it would really make the extension look like a waste of money since the full $300M/km is being spent, while getting only 25% of the service. I imagine the same thing would happen at Yonge. Nobody would propose spending full subway costs to achieve 20% capacity. I would guess that maybe a better short-turn station would be built at Steeles and half the train would turn south from there.
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I don't have an issue with turning back up to 80% of the trains at Finch or Steeles to accomodate demand further south as it is needed during rush hour. That's a 10 minute headway which isn't abnormal for subway systems around the world.

It is totally unacceptable, in my opinion, to have southbound trains entering Eglinton Station be above capacity because of the Yonge extension. Imagine the crowds at Eglinton-Yonge Station when the ECLRT opens with thousands of new riders going through the station.

This would only be a stop gap measure until the DRL goes north to Sheppard, Finch or Highway 7 to relieve capacity on Yonge north of Eglinton.
 
Also totally unacceptable to be running 10 minute frequencies on a line that will be receiving 14,000 people an hour. That's over 2,000 people a train..
 
innsertnamehere said:
Also totally unacceptable to be running 10 minute frequencies on a line that will be receiving 14,000 people an hour. That's over 2,000 people a train..
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I'm not too familiar with GO operations, so please forgive my ignorance.

But perhaps increased headway on the Richmond Hill Go Line could siphon off some of the 14,000 from the Yonge line?
 
M II A II R II K said:
They'll probably have to quad track it and have express trains along side the regular Yonge route.
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That's a crazy idea that will likely need to happen one day in the very distant future.

I would propose leaving the Yonge extension as it is right now and then have that line become the Yonge express south of Finch. Stopping only at Sheppard, Eglinton, St. Clair, Boor-Yonge, King (or wherever DRL is) and Union. The current Yonge stations would be maintained on the non-express track.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Yes I get that it will be "regional transportation hub" what with GO trains, 407 Go transitways, VIVA transitways, and the subway but is the cost of the construction really worth it for 2000 people?

All you are doing is shifting the transfer point North, you are not eliminating many transfers and you are not going to remove as many buses as you claim from the surrounding streets.
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It depends on your POV of what transit is supposed to do.

First, as far as I can tell, you are 100% agreeing that the current subway terminus is rather far away from the population it serves. That is reason enough to extend it. I forget the numbers off-hand but there are HUNDREDS of buses each hour that now go along that stretch of Yonge so the transfers are feeding in totally differently than they do today.

Secondly, the "regional transportation hub" is supposed to house about 50,000 new people in the next 20 years so I suspect that opening day 2,000 number will climb slightly. In the meantime, those 50,000 inevitable people have chosen to live in a transit-oriented neighbourhood instead of moving out to a detached house in the nether-regions of Vaughan and driving 20km to Finch Station.

Call me a dreamer, but I just don't see the downside with giving it a shot.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
First, as far as I can tell, you are 100% agreeing that the current subway terminus is rather far away from the population it serves. That is reason enough to extend it. I forget the numbers off-hand but there are HUNDREDS of buses each hour that now go along that stretch of Yonge so the transfers are feeding in totally differently than they do today.
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Right so if we are not going to even get close to the population centre that the extension is going to serve than, as I said, you are not removing a transfer and you are not removing busses or automobiles (or at least not removing as many as you expect to) you are just shifting the transfer point and the automobile traffic 6 km down the road. The majority of riders, even with the RHC plan fully built out with 50 000 + residents, will still arrive on the subway from somewhere else in the region.

Instead why not build an LRT and serve all the riders who currently travel along Yonge to Finch station? After all you admitted yourself that no extension will ever 100% remove the same direction of travel transfer. So why not build an LRT and give everyone a better ride to the subway.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I would propose leaving the Yonge extension as it is right now and then have that line become the Yonge express south of Finch. Stopping only at Sheppard, Eglinton, St. Clair, Boor-Yonge, King (or wherever DRL is) and Union. The current Yonge stations would be maintained on the non-express track.
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I've been nurturing nearly the exact same fanstasy for nearly a decade now, but have never shared it with anyone--until now. A separate Yonge Express Line would be the single greatest piece of infrastructure ever built for this city and combined with a DRL would solve most of our transit problems for generations. My version would have stations at R Hill, Hwy 7, Steeles, Shepherd, Eglinton, Bloor and Union/King and employ 8 car, double sided platforms with peak-hour 4 minute headways.

It'll never happen, but it's nice to dream...
 
innsertnamehere said:
Too bad it would be the equivalent of building 20km of new subway.. I.E. never going to happen.
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That is how much that is currently under construction with the 12.5 km piece of grade-separated Eglinton line between Mount Dennis and Don Mills and the 8.5 km of the Spadina subway extension currently under extension. (Sure, Eglinton isn't using the same subway trains ... but it's costing as much as one underground, with the larger TBMs).
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Right so if we are not going to even get close to the population centre that the extension is going to serve than, as I said, you are not removing a transfer and you are not removing busses or automobiles (or at least not removing as many as you expect to) you are just shifting the transfer point and the automobile traffic 6 km down the road. The majority of riders, even with the RHC plan fully built out with 50 000 + residents, will still arrive on the subway from somewhere else in the region.

Instead why not build an LRT and serve all the riders who currently travel along Yonge to Finch station? After all you admitted yourself that no extension will ever 100% remove the same direction of travel transfer. So why not build an LRT and give everyone a better ride to the subway.
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But you ARE bringing it to the population centre it serves if you bring it up to Highway 7. The massive bus traffic right now is on the 7-Finch stretch and, like some other TTC routes, it makes more sense to replace it with higher order transit for all sorts of reasons. Those 6 km are rather crucial to movement in that whole north-Toronto/south-York Region area so shifting the transfer point has big benefits there. At some point you end up going around in circles. If there was infinite money (or even adequate money!) extending the subway to there would be one of the top 2 or 3 most obvious quick wins in the entire regional transit system. The ONLY reason to hesitate, as far as I'm concerned, is the downstream capacity issues that need to be resolved concurrently.

Obviously people will always be going downtown and feeding into the system, there and everywhere else along the line, via transfers. The questions come down to where are people coming from and going to. By your logic (and it's a fair argument) any transit extension facilitates sprawl etc. If you build GO out to Barrie, well, obviously that makes it easier for someone to live way out there and still work downtown which has both pros and cons.

For me it comes down to numbers: Are the ridership numbers (especially with the RHC/Langstaff buildout) enough to justify subway over LRT. I think it's obviously yes, and already has been at Steeles for years. The modelling for the growth centre is DEPENDENT on the subway so going with an LRT neuters it.
 
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