It's the optics of it....a line that touches the 905 is something a politician can show off at the next election. How would a DRL help any 905 politician? Or is there a better reason why the DRL is at the 'back of the bus' on Metrolinx's radar?

That being said, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Beggars can't be chooser. I for one, am grateful that some subway construction is happening. Given the history of Toronto, it could just as easily be no metrolinx, no subway and no plan....

Well I guess that's the crux of it: is it even possible to have a semi-intelligent regional plan without any kind of grand political reordering of the GTA first? Or will we just have to settle for whatever multi-billion dollar half-baked solution falls out of all this petty parochialism?

It's hard to believe that a city-region of 6 million people can be so utterly incompetent at transit planning, yet here we are.
 
It is also hard to believe that we have a country of over 32M people with no national transit strategy. Yes, the Tories have promised $33B but that is for ALL infrastructure across Canada and that is a drop in the bucket.

The main problem is the structure of our government. Federal government doesn't want to just give money away without strings. It is these strings that cause endless delays and result in nothing being done.

I can't believe that it is 2008, almost 2009 and we have not built any significant transit in the GTA since the 70's and 80's. What bugs me the most is the colossal waste of time that it takes to plan, design, fund and built a transit project. We've talked about the Spadina line since forever, and it has been funded since 2006, and still construction has not started yet except for a minor sewer. The problem is that our political system is a complete joke. Projects wait for one government to fund it and nothing happens in the mean time. We need to streamline financing and ensure that design and all that is all finished so that when funding happens, construction begins immediately. I very much enjoy the York Region approach. Their Viva system was built quickly. Now they are pushing the Yonge subway line. This was not even an option a year ago. It was not talked about. Now, it will be submitted for funding in April's provincial budget. We need more projects like this. Transit City is taking forever to break ground. We should have had at least 1 line opening by 2010, but wait we can't even purchase replacement vehicles for existing streetcars much less buy new LRT vehicles for new lines. The simplest things take forever. Mississauga's BRT is a simple project yet it will take several years to build an extra lane on the highway and some shelters. Give me a break. The GTA will choke on it's own growth, and what you will see is severely restricted movement across the region.

The Metrolinx projects will help, but at the rate they are going, construction for most of them wont start until the next decade and then take years and years to complete. So essentially travel will get a heck of a lot worse before these services can bring it back to 2008 levels by 2020. Now that's progress!
;-)
 
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That's a little disingenious isn't it. Miller got an overwhelming 57% of the vote in 2006, and his main rival got only 32%. Compared to the previous (2003) election where Miller only got 43% of the vote, compared to 38% for his rival. There's no evidence to suggest that the majority of people who didn't vote, would have voted differently.

The official plan revisions were well underway before Miller became mayor in 2003, and the Surface Transit Priority Network was added well before the 2007 election, which calls for "reserved or dedicated lanes for buses and streetcars". There's only minor tweaks since then.

Surely the increased support for Miller between 2003 and 2006 indicates that people aren't up in arms about this plan.

Let's have debate here on the issues, rather than federal-style poisoning the discussion with misinformation and blatant untruths.

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I also should add, that Transit City is the progression of the TTC's Ridership Growth Strategy released in March 2003, when Mel Lastman was mayor. It called for surface rapid transit corridors on many of the same corridors that Transit City is now using. Incidentally that March 2003 document discussed the new City Plan in the past-tense, referencing a 2002 date for it. The truth is, this has all been slowly building since amalgamation.

What rubbish! Anyone with half a brain can see that Miller increasing his vote total by running against a relatively weak candidate in 2006 does not constitute support for a transit plan released in 2007. A chimpanzee could see this. Doady's notion that 'you get what you voted for' is patently false. If I had even the slightest hint that Miller would propose a billion dollar LRT line on Morningside, I wouldn't have voted for him in 2003.

Only 3 out of 7 Transfer City lines were mentioned in the RGS as priorities (note that they were cited for suitable surface improvements, not LRT lines) and most of these corridors were not designated Avenues. They're still not. Of that 3, one of them, Sheppard, still had a subway extension on the table and Rocket bus/bus lane improvements were suggested in the meantime.

It's a shame that the RGS was ditched because it grew from a recognition that certain routes are dysfunctional and it asked "how do we improve these routes?" It tried solving existing problems and didn't ask "where should we put LRT lines?" The RGS document doesn't even mention LRT lines. Of course, the RGS was a TTC document and Transfer City was a product of the mayor's office.

Thanks for supporting my argument by quoting "buses or streetcars" from the surface transit priority network, which, if you didn't notice, was not a plan to add $10B worth of LRT lines, it was a plan to address transit problems on about 20 corridors. Several maps have been released over the years and virtually every major route in the city has been one at least one of them. Many of these corridors will have to go without improved transit as attention has shifted to, for example, Sheppard & Morningside, which was never slated as a priority but will now be the intersection of almost $2B worth of LRT lines. Transfer City is exponentially more expensive than what was proposed in the RGS or the surface (read: largely bus lanes) network suggestions, hardly a "minor tweak."

Transfer City actually disagrees with previous plans...it doesn't improve the busiest or most dysfunctional routes, it doesn't follow previously approved Avenues, it doesn't support suburban centres, etc. It may be true that most of the lines were included as potential surface transit improvements at some point but they were listed amongst a dozen others and as surface improvements, not a surprise $10B plan including multi-billion dollar tunnelled segments that, due to an extremely high cost, will preempt other projects and need to be mostly or fully funded by the province/feds.

"Transit City is completely new. Many of the lines in this plan have never been part of old transit studies, or have appeared as full-blown subway lines, not as LRT." Steve Munro said that.

It's funny how at the Transfer City meetings, almost every official would spout lines lifted directly from the brochures and finding someone willing to give an honest professional assessment of the lines was quite difficult, but at the recent YRT meeting I went to, every official in attendance that I spoke to gave nothing but their honest opinion, even disclosing potential flaws in their transit plans. It was refreshing!
 
a reason why the DRL will not be built before transit city and other initiatives, is because DRL, will only help the current subway riders, it will not really attract the amount of "new" riders transit city or other Go initiatives will attract. Metrolinx just wants the subway use to go up, because at the moment the subway really isn't "that" busy i think everyone is exaggerating a lil on here. It only gets bad at rush hour as opposed to a city like Madrid or Paris where the subways are, for the most part busy all the time. And i know ther will people who say "well do you want to wait till it gets that bad?" well no not really, but i think Metrolinx jsut wants to get the framewok set before it can start expandning some inner city subway lines. It wants to attract in general more transit users. And btw, I've seen how everyone is saying how the new lines will stress capacity on the Yonge line, but really, i don't think so... not "everyone" goes to the downtown core, and as well I believe that the majority of people working in the downtown core are already sing transit of some form or another, whether it be GO or the TTC, so I don't htink the new riders will really mostly be going to the city core, I think that lots of the Transit city lines will serve for shorter area distances, for instance I know that if the yonge line is extended to Highway 7(i know this isn't transit city) i would take it to North York centre often and to Highway 7 often, not really to Union too much, as well Most peaople norht of steeles would prefer to take the GO if anything to Union, since it is quite a bit faster and alot more comfortable....and last note, I think the Jane LRT, would greater serve York Rehion IMHO because of Wonderland, vaughan Mills and all the growth on Jane North of Steeles, but honestly Jane south of steeles is shit all the way down. Also the Jane LRT in York Region would help ppl taking the spadina subway to Steeles or VCC to get to Wonderland and VMills, I don't htink the Jane LRT is really needed in the south, because I really don't see many trip generators along this route, but that's jsut my two sents :)

Also on another note I went to the public meeting for the Yonge extension on the 26th and I asked the TTC guy about the Sheppard extension West to Spadina line for relief of the Yonge, and he said that, that is his next project to study whether it would help or not...so there's still hope for that much missing link on the sheppard line!
 
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Most peaople norht of steeles would prefer to take the GO if anything to Union, since it is quite a bit faster and alot more comfortable....

That is not true. A great many of us prefer to take the TTC to Union, and do so daily. It is quite a bit faster.
 
Keep in mind that "Union" does not equal "downtown" and that few subway riders that go downtown go as far south as Union. Someone coming from Richmond Hill and going to Front Street may be better off taking GO but what if you're going from Clark to Dundas? GO cannot beat the subway for that trip.
 
True, but it has spare capacity that we can leverage for people coming from, say, 16th and going to the CBD or backtracking a few stops.
 
a reason why the DRL will not be built before transit city and other initiatives, is because DRL, will only help the current subway riders, it will not really attract the amount of "new" riders transit city or other Go initiatives will attract.
Huh? What makes you suggest that? Metrolinx's numbers have their "Downtown Core Line" pulling down 138.4m riders a year, nearly 3x higher than the busiest TC line (Eglinton), with no parasitic effect on B/D or Y/U/S. Their core line's routing is extremely vague, so it hard to understand exactly who it will help, but it would surely help the tens of thousands of people who are moving downtown and are dependent on unreliable and slow streetcar services to get downtown.
Metrolinx just wants the subway use to go up, because at the moment the subway really isn't "that" busy i think everyone is exaggerating a lil on here. It only gets bad at rush hour as opposed to a city like Madrid or Paris where the subways are, for the most part busy all the time. And i know ther will people who say "well do you want to wait till it gets that bad?" well no not really, but i think Metrolinx jsut wants to get the framewok set before it can start expandning some inner city subway lines. It wants to attract in general more transit users.
You're logic there would nix at least half of Transit City. Jane, Malvern and Water Front West are not perpetually crowded, or even well used. Finch is clearly well used, but you don't see any significant bunching or real route problems, at least nothing that couldn't be ameliorated with bendy buses, all-door loading and the odd bus priority lane. Eglinton is congested to all hell, but even then only in the 4 lane "downtown" parts. All that aside, we are talking about specific lines, not overall system ridership. So, assuming the Y/U/S line was grossly underutilized and a massive money hole (which isn't true), that would have no bearing on whether or not a DRL is a valuable investment. As far as Metrolinx numbers suggest, out of all projects being considered, the DRL would have the highest absolute ridership, the highest ridership/km, the highest peak ridership and run service the most low income/over 60 residents (which has somewhere along the way become an actual metric....).
And btw, I've seen how everyone is saying how the new lines will stress capacity on the Yonge line, but really, i don't think so... not "everyone" goes to the downtown core, and as well I believe that the majority of people working in the downtown core are already sing transit of some form or another, whether it be GO or the TTC, so I don't htink the new riders will really mostly be going to the city core,
Metrolinx suggests the YUS line will have an AM peak hour boardings of 90k in 25 years. I don't really know what that means (does it factor for the Crosstown + Finch + Sheppard +SRT extension+VCC+Richmond Hill?), but in any case that is a hell of a lot of people. Today, the subway is at crush load during rush hour. I guess adding a 7th car and ATC will help things, but the idea of 90k using the subway during the same hour seems bordering on unsafety. Worst of all, if the Y/U/S breaks down or suffers some kind of delay, which is inevitable, it gets to the point at some stations where even the platform is crowded.
 
True, but it has spare capacity that we can leverage for people coming from, say, 16th and going to the CBD or backtracking a few stops.

16th is in Richmond Hill and I've already said someone up that far would probably find GO quicker. BMO hasn't distinguished between places in 'the 905' that are invariably better served by taking GO downtown, like Brampton or Pickering, and places like Thornhill, which are not. BMO has neglected the fact that there are no GO stations between Old Cummer and Langstaff, the area actually served by the Yonge extension, and that the purpose of the Yonge extension isn't to take people from Richmond Hill to Union, it's to serve everybody in between.
 
That is not true. A great many of us prefer to take the TTC to Union, and do so daily. It is quite a bit faster.

oh sorry i that comment was made assuming the GO improvements were implemented first like the all day 2way
 
16th is in Richmond Hill and I've already said someone up that far would probably find GO quicker. BMO hasn't distinguished between places in 'the 905' that are invariably better served by taking GO downtown, like Brampton or Pickering, and places like Thornhill, which are not. BMO has neglected the fact that there are no GO stations between Old Cummer and Langstaff, the area actually served by the Yonge extension, and that the purpose of the Yonge extension isn't to take people from Richmond Hill to Union, it's to serve everybody in between.

on this point i meant like ppl from clark, royal orchard, longbride and richmond hill would usually go norht to richmond Hill cnetre and take the GO from there, even the trek up norht to highway 7 and taking the go , for what i'm assuming will be a transfer withouth charge, and the people would get to union and the downtown core quicker, I understand your points about how union does not define the downtown core, but as well keep in mind most of the people who would be using the yonge north all the way down, would already be using it now, via taking either the steeles buses or viva or one of the various other busses that lead to the Yonge subway so, imho I don't believe the capacity will be unbearibly more, i htink the extension is more for the convenience of the commuters especially since people wouldn't be wasting time on stopped busses during rush hour anymore. But i just want to make it clear i don't study planning or anything (I plan to), so i'm not trying to be like ignorrant or just an ass, i'm just putting my point of view :), i do enjoy the criticism tho it opens my eyes up to other possibilities.

Also, about the DRL, the only thing i think it will do is not get "new" riders but rather just take people off the streetcar lines and put them on the subway, and scarberian's point about how the union stn isn't the downtown core, makes another point for me, most people going to places other than union won't want to transfer off the bloor line all the way to union then transfer agin onto the YUS line, so in that sense, i don't think many people will be enticed to switch off of the Bloor line instead of jsut having to do two transfers to get to King for instance rather than 3 on the DRL line. I'm not saying the DRL line is important, the king and queen lines should have been improved a long time ago and I htink this subway is needed, but if the basis of building the subway is because it will take off sooo many people form the YUS line or the bloor line, i honestly don't think it will.
 
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No, people from Clark would not get downtown quicker by transferring two additional times and travelling several km out of their way. It's just not going to happen, unless the GO train from Langstaff can get to Union in less than 10 minutes...which it can't.
 
Oh, and, on average, Madrid's subway network is roughly as busy as the Sheppard line. This means that dozens and dozens of km of Madrid's lines are less busy than Sheppard.
 
BMO, the GO train takes 35 minutes to go from Langstaff to Union. Given that the subway from Finch to Union is currently 25 minutes, it's probable that the subway ride from Langstaff to Union would also be 35 minutes. With only 4 trains per day and a curvy path through the Don Valley, the Richmond Hill GO line is uniquely slow and inconvenient. With any foresight, the subway extension to Langstaff will be built with a 4 track cross section to permit future express tracks. This will improve travel times even more.

Finally, when you consider Canadian and American subway systems, Toronto is by far the most overcrowded in terms of riders per km of track. Toronto has 30,700 boards per km, whereas NYC has only 9,800. Toronto's subway system can not handle more rush hour passengers, and rather than running trains every 90 seconds, the better solution is to build new lines, and add express tracks to the existing lines.

Correction: per mile, according to wikipedia.
 
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