[nfitz]

Anyone who thinks the Keesmaat map that came out last week - listing 15-year Toronto transit priority projects will materialize precisely as planned, raise your hands! What, no one?

Of course no one. Keesmat herself has said it will change.

And it already has twice, first by adding the Richmond Hill Yonge subway extension, and then deleting King streetcar. And probably other changes I haven't noticed.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Of course no one. Keesmat herself has said it will change.

And it already has twice, first by adding the Richmond Hill Yonge subway extension, and then deleting King streetcar.

Of course! It's a 15-year plan!
So, of what import can the 30-YEAR TMP - which is still in draft form, to boot - possibly be?
44North keeps citing it as if it's official YR policy that they want a subway up to Major Mac. It's not, and it's debatable whether it means anything about a subway to Highway 7 on Yonge, even if it was. That's the frustration there.

 

[raptor]

Of course no one. Keesmat herself has said it will change.

And it already has twice, first by adding the Richmond Hill Yonge subway extension, and then deleting King streetcar. And probably other changes I haven't noticed.

Another change was to extend the Waterfront LRT from Jane to Woodbine.

 

[44 North]

He keeps mentioning it because he thinks it proves an actual point he came up with in his mind.

If I can have the gumption to speak for my honourable friend, I think his logic goes something like,
"By the time I'm a very old man, York Region thinks maybe they will want subways going to up the very northern edge of the furthest possible urban boundary. Ergo, they don't know where subways actually make sense, which is in Toronto. I already think only an LRT or MetroRail makes sense in York Region and this coloured line on a map proves it.
Even if a subway made sense to Highway 7 it obviously doesn't make sense up to there so if they want to go up there, there shouldn't be a subway in the first place. The longer they want to build it, the less sense it makes, see?
It proves that York Region isn't really committed to TOD in VMC and further York Region's entire subway-centric logic is diluted and they should have LRT or MetroRail going up to Major Mac, even though that "plan" I keep citing is an unapproved 30-year TMP and the subway is an approved project with a complete TPAP, cited as a 15-year priority by Metrolinx, York Region, Markham Richmond Hill, YRT/Viva, TTC and the The City of Toronto."

Something like that, anyway.

Anyone who thinks the Keesmaat map that came out last week - listing 15-year Toronto transit priority projects - will materialize precisely as planned, raise your hands! What, no one?
Now, everyone who thinks the 30-year York TMP - still not approved by council, still not incorporated into any official plan or any official document of any kind - has any tangible impact on the future of the Yonge subway extension - can you raise your hands, please? Just 44North??!!

Shocker.

On a lighter note - thanks to everyone who posted pictures of the old radial line. It's a cool, largely unknown bit of local history, how people used to take streetcars up to Lake Wilcox for picnics etc.

Well, it's not just the TMP. Read over the Vaughan Mills plans. Subway's included as a possibility, the design of the hub is to include a subway's future extension, and I believe that's for 2031. Then factor in the "moving targets" thing we talk about, Vaughan's request to update VMC2's hub status, and that new ideas come up all the time. Some shot down, some carried forward. And no, I never once said it's an official policy. And I think I've made it pretty clear how I put little faith in any TMP for the reasons mentioned (whether it's Toronto's or Timbuktu). But either way, Line 1 extensions north of 7 are on York Region's radar, and may very well become priorities sooner rather than later.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Well, it's not just the TMP. Read over the Vaughan Mills plans. Subway's included as a possibility, the design of the hub is to include a subway's future extension, and I believe that's for 2031. Then factor in the "moving targets" thing we talk about, Vaughan's request to update VMC2's hub status, and that new ideas come up all the time. Some shot down, some carried forward. And no, I never once said it's an official policy. And I think I've made it pretty clear how I put little faith in any TMP for the reasons mentioned (whether it's Toronto's or Timbuktu). But either way, Line 1 extensions north of 7 are on York Region's radar, and may very well become priorities sooner rather than later.

Unofficial.
Hypothetical.
Hugely long-term.

Toronto envisioned a subway loop at Steeles 30 years ago. Do you see it? Then why are you assuming there's any relevance to a subway at Major Mac 30 years from now?
It's a bit of interesting context, in terms of where YR/Vaughan want to go. I actually quite sincerely thank you for bringing it to light, in that context - I don't think I'd seen it until you mentioned it.

But it's a red herring when it comes to the planning for a line from Finch to Highway 7, which is all that is officially under consideration in this thread and everywhere else.

Similarly, you like citing Calthorpe's PRT system for Langstaff which, no doubt, is very pie in the sky. It's also a full-build out concept you keep citing as if it's the backbone of the plan. It effectively boils down to automated cars, which by 2041/51 may well seem rather less far-fetched and likely render the PRT itself obsolete before it comes close to reality. On the one hand you readily admit that priorities shift and plans change but with the other you keep wielding the most far-fetched elements of a given long-term plan to prove its lack of immediate-term consequence.

 

[minilude]

many marketing materials have fantasies..don't be too serious about it. It's like you don't deny your possibilities of winning a lottery nor do they deny any extension to Simcoe Lake even if it's hardly practical as far as we live.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

One thing that people seem to conveniently ignore in the whole subway extension debate is that yes the Yonge line is congested and people have to wait for subway cars...for 2 hours a day.

Drivers have learned to leave a little early as traffic will be expected. Each morning, every highway into the city is heavily congested:
View attachment 69552
Congestion is good, that means the roads are being used fully. If all routes were green all the time it means we have massively overbuilt our infrastructure.

Our transit should be busy - it's actually a good thing. York should be able to have some sway in extending the subway...as long as their pay for it (and some for the DRL as well!).

I mean, most early morning commuters are already busing to Finch station, so extending the subway north may not net many new early riders anyways.

Does Toronto not want residents of Vaughan/Richmond hill coming down mid-day, evenings, and weekends when the subway is less busy to spend spend spend in the city? Of course they should!

I think another good idea could be to charge people boarding at the Richmond Hill stations a higher fare in the morning rush to convince more people to consider GO. Outside of the AM peak it's still normal fare though. However, this could be tricky to implement (Presto?).

It is an interesting question.

As we built out our highways into the suburbs and generally improved car access, we also consequently encouraged car-oriented suburban build form to fill up that access capacity on our highways.

By investing in transit and expanding subway capacity, we do the same. We encourage transit-oriented development and more urban build forms to fill up that access capacity on our subways.

Here is the interesting thing about the numbers for Yonge North extension. While it adds several thousand riders at peak hour, putting us significantly above capacity, the numbers also indicates that boardings within Toronto simultaneously declined by several thousand as Torontonian transit users, perhaps distraught with watching 4 or 5 trains go by before getting on and live life as a sardine, decide to opt away from using public transit.

This is a problem in general, as with or without the Yonge North extension, the Yonge subway is going to become over-capacity and be a generally hellish experience during the morning and evening rush hour. This is going to chase away many many potential transit users.

So I am unsure if the same thing with roads would apply to transit, because with transit we are not concerned with just purely 'commuter throughput' as the traffic engineers of old were. We are concerned with all the social, economic, environmental and urban benefits that transit, high transit mode share, and transit-oriented development provides. While white elephant transit projects are obviously to be discouraged, we need to continuously strive to make our transit system have some breathing room between ridership and capacity in order to achieve maximum socioeconomic efficiency.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Last week I was possibly Alan Shefman. This week I'm definitely Wayne Emmerson.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/03/13/extend-the-yonge-subway-now.html


Extend the Yonge subway now

What the critics of the subway extension don't understand is that traffic congestion doesn't respect municipal borders


By: Wayne Emmerson Published on Sun Mar 13 2016

The time to extend the Yonge subway north from Toronto’s Finch Station to Richmond Hill is now. To be more specific, the time to begin the preliminary engineering and design work is now.

Consider this, a project of this scope and magnitude will take at least 10 years to complete — so when the ribbon is cut to officially open the Yonge north subway extension, the new segment of the Spadina subway (which isn’t open yet) will have been in operation for at least a decade and Regional Express Rail/SmartTrack will be servicing thousands of commuters daily.

Demand for an extended Yonge subway is not an issue. Currently, there are 2,500 bus trips a day required to service this section of Yonge Street. Yes, that’s 2,500 bus trips a day on sections of Yonge Street between Finch and Highway 7. This subway extension is a critical missing link in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area’s (GTHA) regional rapid transit system.

The main argument against proceeding with this project appears to be capacity. Opponents pointing to recent City of Toronto studies and modelling numbers say Toronto’s main transit priorities have to be funded and completed first, including a downtown relief line.

While it’s true that more capacity is needed and that the GTHA is well behind due to years of delaying critical transit investments — it’s not about our project vs. theirs. Simply put, improvements are also desperately needed outside of the City of Toronto’s borders — traffic congestion doesn’t respect municipal boundaries.

Regional council and transit officials in York Region are relying on the advice of Metrolinx, the provincial transportation authority, to carry out transportation planning for the GTHA.

In a June 2015 study, Metrolinx concluded that the Yonge subway will be under capacity even in 2031, due to the implementation of Regional Express Rail/SmartTrack, the Spadina subway extension, automated train control and other currently funded projects. Therefore, there is no reason the extension of the Yonge subway can’t proceed in parallel with other priority transit projects over the next 15 years.

The fact is that these current additions to the public transit network will work together to offer relief to the Yonge line and open up capacity for Toronto residents working in York and York residents working in Toronto. People live and work all over the GTHA and need properly planned regional transit to get around — that is why Metrolinx exists.

The extension of the Yonge subway north is the top priority of York Region, not only because it will close a vital gap in creating a transit network that seamlessly connects the GTHA, but it will help us keep up with the tremendous growth we are experiencing. It will also improve the environment by virtually eliminating the 2,500 daily bus trips now required, promote intensification, reduce urban sprawl and drive economic growth.

The Yonge subway extension north will include five stations, two intermodal terminals connecting to GO Transit and YRT/Viva and 2,000 commuter parking spaces. As a result, it will lead to increased flexibility and several more transit options for all residents and commuters in this area, not to mention the new development of 23,530 residential units and 25,000 jobs at the Richmond Hill/Langstaff Gateway Urban Growth Centre.

When the Yonge subway extension is complete, Richmond Hill Station will be the equivalent of a Union Station north, offering commuters many transportation choices to get to a variety of destinations throughout the GTHA.

Instead of putting the brakes on progress and the development of other commuter-worthy transit improvements throughout the GTHA, we firmly believe we should be moving this project down the track and looking to the future. That means respecting Metrolinx’s recommendations for advancing all Next Wave projects and extending the Yonge subway north, now.

Wayne Emmerson is Chairman and CEO, Regional Municipality of York.

 

[jaycola]

You go away for a couple weeks and this thread grows by 25 pages.

Reviewing what was said, very little new was added to the conversation and the opposing sides of the debate appear now only more entrenched in their positions than before but the rhetoric appears more nasty.
To sum up what I gathered from skimming over the pages, for opponents, York Region in is seen as freeloading, selfish and ignorant in it's quest to improve transit along the Yonge corridor because of capacity issues further down the line. York's development plan in itself is part of the problem because so much of the planned development will as a matter of course only add further strain to what is unquestionably an already overburdened line.

York for it's part is looking at the provincial requirement to contain the urban boundary and to focus development towards high density, transit integrated urban neighbourhoods and is planning in a matter consistent with "Places to Grow" which they are expected to do.

I do believe both sides of the debate have valid arguments but York's ability to manage growth and urbanize is dependent upon growth in the Yonge corridor. The bulk of remaining land available to York Region for development is, due to the constraints of the "Green Belt", essentially a 5-7 km wide swath centred on Yonge street with Bathurst for the most part being the western edge of development. Similarly if we look at the traffic density and retail density in the images below, life in York Region is without a doubt centred on Yonge Street.

Simply put for York Region in general, the best opportunity for creating urban densities and walkable, transit focused neighbourhoods is for this to occur along Yonge street. Needless to say, any transit improvements connecting York residents to Yonge will put added pressure on the already overburdened line but if not there than where?

"Regional Official Plan
With a population of 1,156,186 residents as of June 30, 2015, The Regional Municipality of York is the third-largest municipality in Ontario and the sixth-largest in Canada. Ranked as Canada’s fastest-growing large municipality, York Region will continue to expand rapidly over the coming decades. York Region is forecast to reach 1,790,000 residents and 900,000 jobs by 2041." http://tinyurl.com/gpsrmj4

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Well said - we are all more entrenched, I fear. FWIW, I literally agree with every word of the Emmerson thing above and while I didn't write it myself, I could have.

I think part of the problem, which you outline, is that the growth is inevitable. There seems to be this naive belief/hope among Team Capacity that the growth will be slowed or halted while the DRL proceeds. It won't. So, recognizing those legit concerns, you have to understand that by delaying the subway you are distorting natural transportation patterns and natural market forces and inhibiting York Region's ability to fulfill its obligations - obligations it has willfully accepted and exceeded, unlike the vast majority of 905 municipalities - under the growth plan.

Instead we get scolding of York Region, as if Markham should be punished for promoting a more sustainable, transit-oriented Official Plan/intensification strategy than anyone else in the province. Vaughan is criticized for opening more whitebelt lands and, in the same breath, Markham is criticized for daring to demand the infrastructure that will allow it open the minimum amount of whitebelt lands.

The people will come, no matter what, and if you don't give them another option they'll be in northern Vaughan and East Gwillimbury and who knows where else; all those yellow spots on the OP map above instead of the grey space. Without developing more job centres, the likelihood is they'll still largely commute downtown and many will still take the subway. You'll have the same capacity issues, but less efficiency moving people.

So, of course, build RER and the DRL - but don't assume it's going to be enough or that forces beyond your control will wait until you've put all the pieces in play. A few pages back there was a metaphor about how you wouldn't put more water into a bathtub that's already full. Of course you wouldn't want to. But you should also know that you can't do anything to turn off the faucet and putting a plug in the tub doesn't solve the problem until Home Depot delivers you a new one.

 

[Canadian Chocho]

Having spent yesterday evening at the Starbucks at Yonge and Steeles and witnessing the traffic mess that that intersection is makes me think anyone who wants to cut the YNE at Steeles does so out of spite. The urban region most definitely does not end at Steeles and most certainly continues northward.

I wonder if re-configuring Bay Station back to an interchange station would relieve Y/B in any significant way. Perhaps the (temporary) solution has been under our noses this whole time?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I heard the interchange thing getting kicked around again this week on Twitter or something; someone asking Keesmaat about it.

Not sure what the deal is but I presume there are real obstacles to doing it or surely they would have floated it as least an interim solution.

 

[nfitz]

I wonder if re-configuring Bay Station back to an interchange station would relieve Y/B in any significant way. Perhaps the (temporary) solution has been under our noses this whole time?

No, because of the Spadina line. You just can't ran the capacity since the modifications in the 1970s.

 

[Forgotten]

Having spent yesterday evening at the Starbucks at Yonge and Steeles and witnessing the traffic mess that that intersection is makes me think anyone who wants to cut the YNE at Steeles does so out of spite.

If you were trying to figure out where to end a subway line and start something else, picking a spot where traffic drops off by 50% would be a good spot.

The thirst for development fees is real. If only York weren't indebted up to its eyeballs we could have an unprejudiced conversation about the real needs of the Region.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The thirst for development fees is real. If only York weren't indebted up to its eyeballs we could have an unprejudiced conversation about the real needs of the Region.

Red herring.
They get dcs from sprawling development more than condos and the subway adds to their debt.

Oh, and they have a Aaa rating with a stable outlook.