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Not only will the Bridle Path protest it, it wouldn't make a lick of sense. Nobody in this very low-density area would be seen in anything less than a Mercedes.
Then it would run through really fast with no stops - but it would help people from Don Mills and Lawrence East getting to Yonge.

By the same token, it would be nice to see the St. Clair car go East of Yonge, and hook into O'Connor or Overlea and then jump to St. Clair East somehow ... though very difficult with the terrain, but if possible, would let you get places, you could never get with a car.
 
Whose posts? Can you point us to some?
I'm not going to single out specific posts. I exaggerated a bit, but if you read some of the Transit City threads there was a fair amount of whining about the planned LRT lines with suggestions that not building subways means a lack of foresight, regardless of the cost.
 
Eug: Oh, please. Sure, there's been plenty of criticism of Transit City, but it's about the specifics. Only Sheppard and Eglinton have been mentioned here as areas where subways might be a better idea. (The DRL is separate from TC). Of course, subway construction was done on both streets.

But anyway, the magic of a neighbourhood with light rail (for more than 10 years now)!:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7119320@N05/3492329213/in/set-72157617537095952/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7119320@N05/3493147344/in/set-72157617537095952/
 
Same could be said about Forest Hill, but the 512 St. Clair runs at the bottom and Eglinton LRT will be running through it.

I'm not going to argue that it's a bad idea, but one thing I will say is this:

If you think the stretches of Eglinton or St Clair in question are in any way comparable to this part of Lawrence, you must be blind.
 
The LRT station is a block away (just to the right of the first photo). Also a major bus transfer hub!
 
Ah. Yes, things would be much much different in St Louis if they'd run heavy rail trains on those LRT tracks.

That's the point you were trying to make, right?
 
Nope.

Here's a neighbourhood right by a heavy-rail subway line:

RTA3.jpg
 
You're a good photographer.

But what does this have to do with the thread?

:confused:


 
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TC2 Proposals:

Lawrence East. This is interlined with Eglinton through the Eglinton tunnel, then goes north via Don Mills (or maybe Leslie) and East along Lawrence from there.

I'd rather see Lawrence East interlined with Morningside proceeding south on Morningside to Kennedy via Kingston and Eglinton. Or a better priority would be York Mills/Ellesmere.
 
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If we're going to see another transit plan in the region, I'd like to see something a little less on-the-back-of-a-napkin-in-the-mayor's-office. We need real studies to find out where people are going, and how these trips are best served. We need to get out of this mentality that all transit routes must travel along existing streets and be upgraded steadily from bus to streetcar to subway. Toronto (and partially New York) aside, no city in the world hews its subway lines strictly to the streets above. The TTC has also shown no ability as of yet to design an LRT in the middle of the street that can operate reliably or significantly improve travel times over a standard bus route. By their own admission, they tried and failed with Spadina, and they tried and failed with St. Clair. That doesn't mean that LRT is a useless mode. It's successfully employed in many other cities, but the successful routes tend to be as separated from street traffic as possible. The C-Train in Calgary, for example, is worth emulating. That being said, LRT works best on separate corridors, urban distributors, or relatively short feeder routes. Toronto's subway backbone is meager and creaking from overcrowding.

The first and most important transit improvement, in my view, would spell the end of planning like Transit City: complete fare integration between TTC, GO Transit, and the 905 regional transit systems. How you design the fare system isn't the key here. Presumably zone fares will be required, but whether the 416 remains one zone or is divided like the rest of the GTA is a matter that would require a great deal of study. The important thing is that a person travelling from one point to another in the GTA will pay the same amount and purchase the same ticket regardless of what mode they choose to use. This opens up the entire regional rail network to serve as a rapid transit system. A simultaneous step would a comprehensive plan to upgrade all of the existing rail corridors to create a region-wide rapid transit network. It would receive unified branding, with route identification like that of the S-Bahn networks in Germany or the RER in France. A guaranteed service standard of, say, 15 minutes would be offered throughout the system, so that it provides genuine rapid transit. The current approach of Metrolinx is baffling, since it seems to separate track improvements from electrification, and electrification from rolling stock acquisition. All of these things need to be considered simultaneously. Imagine the wasted funds if electric locomotives were acquired for a newly-electrified Lakeshore line, only to have the system shift to multiple units as the rest of the system is electrified. The whole thing would be remarkably easy to do and affordable, and would revolutionize transit in the whole region. It would provide a rapid transit backbone for the 905, as well as dramatically expand the coverage of rapid transit in Toronto. Along with fare integration, it's the single most cost effective transit improvement available. Since some of the regional rail routes miss major hubs, some realignment would likely be necessary. For example, the route we currently call the Milton Line could be shifted to serve Mississauga City Centre, as has been discussed in other threads. It's also important to extend the network to areas like Queensville and Bond Head before they are developed and to make sure that they enjoy quality service right away rather than offering a lousy service in the hope that it will nevertheless someday become overcrowded and "justify" improvement, while meanwhile driving most people to the automobile.

Using the regional rail network as a backbone, 905 area transit systems can build improved bus service and LRT where appropriate. On the whole, many of Metrolinx's current plans are quite good, though a better understanding of the potential of regional rail would allow the transit networks to be centred on the regional rail backbone, as the TTC is very effectively designed around the subway network. I have very high hopes for the Highway 407 transitway. Those buses have already greatly exceeded expectations, and will only improve as the dedicated infrastructure provides better connections and faster trips. It would reach its full potential with fare integration. It might be a good candidate for replacement in the longer term with regional rail.

The regional rail backbone would require a complete restructuring of the City of Toronto surface network so that its routes are the focal point of the system the way the subway routes are today. I'd maintain and expand the admirable Ridership Growth Strategy and offer a minimum service standard on all routes. As Steve Munro has described more ably and in far more detail than I ever could, one of the major issues that the TTC faces is an increasing cultural laxity that no longer prioritizes strict adherence to schedules. This has decimated ridership on routes like Queen and risks the entire system. If the contagion spreads to the suburban bus network, it would devastate the entire system. Many of the former Queen riders have shifted to the B-D subway or have chosen to walk or cycle. Nobody's going to stand at Finch and Brimley waiting 45 minutes for a bus in rush hour, as Steve Munro has shown frequently occurs on Queen, and there the only alternative is the car. I'd like to see CIS replaced with a 21st Century GPS-driven system that can monitor all vehicles simultaneously, maintain headways, manipulate traffic signals, and inform waiting riders. None of it will be useful, however, without more rigorous schedule management on the part of drivers and supervisors.

The transit network in Downtown Toronto is severely over-saturated and must be relieved. That's why I've been pushing for the DRL for ages. It made sense in the 80s when we last did relatively apolitical transit planning, and it would work today. It would help extend the boundaries of the downtown area to the east and west, enhance the waterfront development, and relieve the Yonge and B-D lines. The new regional rail lines, with more frequent stops, would also help to serve the urban area of the former City of Toronto. A lot of the streetcar routes downtown are sadly failing to live up to their potential as distributors and for local trips. I suggest another one of my old plans (that is likely shared by many others): make Queen and King into a one way pair with two automobile lanes and two streetcar lanes. That would eliminate the congestion problem on those routes once and for all, and provide a rapid trip through the downtown core while still permitting on-street parking and access to the businesses along those streets. The plan to create a streetcar ROW on King from a few years ago had its heart in the right place, but the virtual total closure of the street to auto traffic made it a political non-starter. There are some other places where I think streetcar service could be expanded, even without a ROW if necessary. Much of the trackage is already in place for Dufferin and Coxwell, so those would be good places to start. When economically implemented and well-administered, streetcars are a pleasant and attractive way to get around, and are a part of Toronto's heritage. They consistently attract more ridership than buses, even when they don't offer a significant benefit in terms of travel time or reliability. We could also look at new technologies like moving rights of way that use signals to move cars out of the way of approaching streetcars without requiring two dedicated lanes. I'd love to see a return to the "Always a Car in Sight" policy of the old TTC. The main reason that I often ride the King car in the morning peak is because it is probably the only streetcar route left that adheres to that rule, at least for a few hours a day.

Beyond the blindingly obvious completion of the Sheppard subway from Scarborough to Downsview, and extending the B-D line from Kennedy to STC, there are a few other inner suburban subway projects that make a lot of sense. Foremost among them is Don Mills. As an extension of the DRL, it would play a major role in relieving the Yonge Subway, which is projected to be increasingly overcrowded even north of Bloor. It would also offer much better travel times to downtown for riders from the east end of the city, allowing them to transfer to the subway much sooner than they do now at Yonge. Passengers on Lawrence, in particular, would benefit as they wouldn't have to jog south to Eglinton to get to the subway. It would also serve one of the most densely-developed corridors in the city. Don Mills is lined, almost from end to end, with large apartment buildings and office complexes. A subway would also serve the Science Centre and Seneca College, among other major destinations. Best of all, much of it could be built elevated, as most of Don Mills isn't ever going to become a mixed-use pedestrian street and so wouldn't suffer greatly from the imposition. I don't have enough information to make a real informed judgement about Eglinton. There haven't been any serious studies about the ridership effect of a subway vs LRT technology, the relative travel times, nor about the real cost implications. All of that makes me quite nervous. While it may theoretically be possible to move 20,000+ riders an hour with LRT technology, it makes absolutely no sense to couple together two or even three LRVs when they cost three times as much for equivalent capacity as subway cars. If the ridership really could be comfortably accommodated with LRT, and the TTC can guarantee that the travel times and reliability will be rapid-transit-quality, then the LRT may be the way to go.
 
Subways should also be extended to logical transfer points with regional transit systems. The Yonge and York/VCC extensions serve the purpose to the north. To the east, Scarborough Centre is the best interchange point. To the west, Kipling in the Etobicoke City Centre offers a good connection with regional rail, though an extension to at least East Mall (you might as well continue to Sherway) would provide a more effective connection with Highway 427. Riders to Mississauga City Centre would mostly take advantage of the faster and more comfortable regional rail line, though they could transfer to the subway at Kipling or Dundas West if their destination is along Bloor.

There are a number of routes in the 416 that are well-suited to light rail. Transit City is already building on some of them (Finch West, Waterfront West), though I am apprehensive about whether the TTC's designs will offer real improvements in travel time or reliability. If those problems could be resolved, perhaps with real GPS-driven signal priority that will guarantee a streetcar won't have to sit at a red light, and crossing arms that prevent cars from entering the right of way when a streetcar is passing as in Calgary, light rail has real potential. The outrageous cost also has to come down. The billion-dollar price tag of 20km streetcar routes is far too high for what is basically two sets of track, a curb, and some catenary. The TTC's record of track construction on College and St. Clair has been pretty amazingly bad, so perhaps someone else might be more successful at cost control. Other LRT routes that could work include McCowan, Ellesmere, Lawrence East, and Wilson, among others.

Transit projects in Toronto, as well as some (but not all) other cities have experienced spectacular inflation in recent years. If this isn't brought under control, we're never going to be able to keep up with infrastructure needs. Vancouver has shown that it's possible to build real rapid transit over 18 km for less than $2 billion cost to governments. It's not perfect, but it offers at least as much capacity as an Eglinton LRT, better travel times, and lower cost of operation thanks to driverless vehicles. While I don't begrudge TTC employees their generous wages, operating costs are far higher than they need to be. Beyond anecdotal examples of individual inefficiency, policies like drivers on the automated SRT trains make very little rational sense. The TTC has multiple full-time employees for every subway and RT station even though, as every rider knows, collectors aren't required to offer any kind of customer service beyond giving change, a task that could frankly be performed quite easily by a machine. While some collectors are wonderful and helpful people, I'd like to see the TTC either embrace the idea of a "Station Manager" that handles customer issues helpfully and deals with problems like delays, or move toward a more automated station management model. The safety argument for collectors and RT drivers doesn't make sense, since policy of course requires them to remain in their booths for their own safety in the event of any emergency. A genuine re-think of TTC operations, with co-operation from the union, could preserve well-paid jobs as well as provide more pleasant and more efficient service.

Travel time must once again become the principal consideration in transit planning, as surveys consistently show that it is the main determining factor, along with reliability, in people choosing to ride transit. Right now, far too many routes are being planned based on "serving" specific areas (Transit City=a streetcar in every ward) or replicating existing corridors. Just because a person's home or workplace is near a transit route doesn't mean that the route is useful to them. It may take them to a completely different place from where they want to go. Many people may currently ride a specific bus route, but that doesn't mean that their origins or destinations are along that route, or that they can't be better accommodated by a route in a different corridor. For example, most riders along the Bloor-Danforth line are obviously not destined to or originating from points along that route. It just happens to be the fastest way for them to get to their destination. Planning can't simply look at existing bus routes and say that a subway line in the same corridor would draw from the same base of riders. A rapid transit line, like a subway or regional rail, is far faster than a bus route or TTC-style LRT, and completely re-shapes travel patterns and requires far more sophisticated travel modelling than we've seen with Transit City. I shake my head every time I see one of those charts that claim that "ridership" on a corridor in 2030 is 'X' number of riders, therefore it must be served by LRT as it is too much for a bus and too little for a subway. 'X' is obviously a dependent variable, and in reality will change dramatically with the travel time improvements offered by a subway. The fact that planners can get away with that kind of thing in published reports is astounding.

That's my rather long rant about some future moves for transit beyond Transit City.
 
I'm not going to single out specific posts. I exaggerated a bit, but if you read some of the Transit City threads there was a fair amount of whining about the planned LRT lines with suggestions that not building subways means a lack of foresight, regardless of the cost.

C'mon...if you're going to make that kind of accusation, you really should at least have one post in mind?
 
Sad how LRT proponents are anti-subway and anti-bus. Instead of just promoting one form of transit, why not realize they are all important and that different corridors require different solutions. Why do you think Transit City does not include downtown? LRT should not be the only solution. LRT activism is just anti-bus and/or anti-subway activism. And I am not just talking about Toronto, but all over North America, especially in the US, where LRT expansion usually results in huge cuts in bus service and thus no improvement in ridership.
 
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