[scarberiankhatru]

Couldn't that same logic be applied to the SRT? Why couldn't the ICTS service be extended to Sheppard meeting either subway or LRT from there? Oh I forgot we're allergic to transfers here . Anyway, the SRT extension wouldn't just benefit Malvernites. 95 users would benefit from stops adjacent to Ellesmere, Centennial College users at Progress and Milner Business Ct and new townhouse developments just south of Sheppard. I don't think it's a good idea to route buses along the highway since gridlock can severely slow down commutes (THINK: 139 Finch E-Don Mills), and as for Ellesmere why would anyone waste millions constructing LRT through vacant fields and rolling hills and valleys? 133/38 is only 10 mins to Neilson and 15 to UTSC.

Isn't Birchmount just a block west of Allenford, so why would the 17 be routed to Warden? An underground walkway more than suffices. My suggestion only included one mid-point station at Kennedy which would actually intercept more transitways than Sheppard/Agincourt would (Midtown/Stoufville/401/SRT/43) plus a major commercial zone with hotels and high rises nearby. Looking at the offical proposals its not out of the realm of possibility to serve BOTH Agincourt (the mall, not the GO Stn.) and Kennedy Commons with a station akin to Oriole GO built to accomodate commuter rail traffic.

Paragraph 1:
Yes, the RT extension would only benefit the area NE of STC...there's over 120,000 people in Milliken (Ward 41 & the Denison area) that would benefit from a subway extension. Everything along Ellesmere and Lawrence will also not benefit from the RT extension. This amounts to a majority of the RT's riders.

The 139 can actually save time getting to Fairview via the 404, but it's only on the 404 for 2km - it could just as easily take Don Mills. The 139 sees low ridership because it makes every local stop between Neilson and Victoria Park, and then if you're going to the Yonge line, you must transfer to the stubway for only 5km...it's not an improvement over the regular Finch bus and calling it "express" is silly.

Ellesmere's not worth LRT? A few pages back you claimed Ellesmere & Neilson was an area of equal importance to the entirety of Agincourt.

Paragraph 2:
It's very simple. Yes, Birchmount is west of Allanford, but having it run to an Agincourt Mall/Allanford station would be kind of like running the Cummer bus to Steeles instead of Finch. Birchmount is only 400m from Allanford but it's only 800m from Warden - the dominant travel pattern will be to take Birchmount south and the Sheppard line west, so people will appreciate not backtracking. This also has the effect of serving the stretch of Sheppard between Birchmount and Warden with a bit of local surface transit. A 400m walkway would really suck and would take longer to travel! BUT: an Allanford station bus station would probably be to the east of the station, closer to Kennedy, meaning the Birchmount-to-Allanford station distance could easily be practically as far as the distance to Warden, which would mean running to Warden is an obvious choice.

Taking the 401 would eliminate Warden, Allanford/Agincourt Mall, and Agincourt/GO stations. You're suggesting one station at Kennedy on the 401 and this will serve Kennedy Commons, Agincourt Mall, and the Stouffville/Midtown interchange? You do realize that Agincourt Mall is 1.2km away? And that the GO interchange would need a 700m underground walkway?

 

[rpgr]

It's very simple. Yes, Birchmount is west of Allanford, but having it run to an Agincourt Mall/Allanford station would be kind of like running the Cummer bus to Steeles instead of Finch. Birchmount is only 400m from Allanford but it's only 800m from Warden - the dominant travel pattern will be to take Birchmount south and the Sheppard line west, so people will appreciate not backtracking. This also has the effect of serving the stretch of Sheppard between Birchmount and Warden with a bit of local surface transit. A 400m walkway would really suck and would take longer to travel! BUT: an Allanford station bus station would probably be to the east of the station, closer to Kennedy, meaning the Birchmount-to-Allanford station distance could easily be practically as far as the distance to Warden, which would mean running to Warden is an obvious choice.

Taking the 401 would eliminate Warden, Allanford/Agincourt Mall, and Agincourt/GO stations. You're suggesting one station at Kennedy on the 401 and this will serve Kennedy Commons, Agincourt Mall, and the Stouffville/Midtown interchange? You do realize that Agincourt Mall is 1.2km away? And that the GO interchange would need a 700m underground walkway?

Just to reiterate what I said before. The Go station would be pushed South a bit towards the Tridel Metrogate area (as shown on plans) and some TTC station would cross there as well supposadly creating a mini-union station of sorts for Agincourt (I do believe those were your words a very long time ago).

It's definately not walking distance to the station from Agincourt mall or Shepperd (at least not in the winter). I would guess bus/LRT/Subway/whatever they decide will reroute to there. In any case Tridel, I would imagine is at least paying part of that proposal (either in land and funds or just land and station building material) for that LEED stuff (I would think it's something they would demand out of pride so as they could say "I was first").

Maybe I'm just being hopeful though as I do have a personal stake in it (I've bought a unit there) so I could be just blowing hot air. I still think it needs to be considered though.

 

[CDL.TO]

The plans from years ago called for two stops, one at Kennedy and another where the rail lines cross.

 

[unimaginative2]

Exactly. The plans show a "Kennedy North" stop between Allanford and Kennedy just south of Agincourt Mall. The next stop would be at the junction of the Midtown GO and Stouffville GO lines, so all three routes could connect. That stop would also be at the centre of a major planned development area. After that, the line would stop in the Midland and Progress area (possibly a stop that would be skipped at first, pending redevelopment). That would be the last before Scarborough Centre.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, the Stouffville-Agincourt station would go a bit south, right where the Midtown line crosses it...this is common knowledge. It'll create an eastern "Union Station Lite."

 

[DENTROBATE54]

None of the stations are close to Ellesmere. If people from the 95 wanted to transfer to the RT, it would still be a shorter transfer at Ellesmere station. It's a pretty long walk to Centennial College, too. The old reports on the extension said that many of the college riders would be unhappy with the extension, because they much prefer the buses that go right into the campus, especially later in the evening where safety's a concern.

The Bellamy Station would actually be closer to Ellesmere than McCowan is because the tailtracks veer southeast into the train yard so it'd likely be just a block north. I agree with Centennial though, the Markham/Progress intersection is at the bottom of a hill with not much immediate density so I'd locate the station if possible right at the campus gates or inside near the current bus loop.

The point of the DRL is not just to get subways (or LRT!) close to different neighbourhoods. It's about getting people where they want to go without too much overcrowding. The Yonge line south of Bloor is already at capacity, so we really need something to relieve it. DRT will relieve the Yonge line, as well as serving fast-growing waterfront neighbourhoods and Riverdale. North of Danforth, it can further relieve the Yonge line as well as many of the east-west bus routes. People from Lawrence East would no longer have their long journey to Eglinton station. It could save them close to 15 minutes, depending on where they're going.

I have no problem with the south of Bloor proposal only that it should extend west into Etobicoke. The Eglinton-Don Mills line I mentioned earlier would duplicate the 54's routing somewhat (Don Mills/Lawrence down an artery to Eglinton) but as a subway commutes would be quicker. As for Richmond Hill my point wasn't to intercept with the BD line (Bloor GO is largely underused) when the Yonge Line's only two stops over but rather to lessen the commutes of people from north of Eglinton (a new station in the Don Mills area along with Oriole and Old Cummer is more practical than a building another multi-stopping subway).

Taking the 401 would eliminate Warden, Allanford/Agincourt Mall, and Agincourt/GO stations. You're suggesting one station at Kennedy on the 401 and this will serve Kennedy Commons, Agincourt Mall, and the Stouffville/Midtown interchange? You do realize that Agincourt Mall is 1.2km away? And that the GO interchange would need a 700m underground walkway?

Ugh, this proposal would've included the Sheppard East LRT for east-of-VP travellers. The subway would therefore not inconvenience the bulk of riders who are destined for either NYCC or SCC in a hurry, even the Kennedy Commons stop could be optional.

A 400m walkway would really suck and would take longer to travel! BUT: an Allanford station bus station would probably be to the east of the station, closer to Kennedy, meaning the Birchmount-to-Allanford station distance could easily be practically as far as the distance to Warden, which would mean running to Warden is an obvious choice.

Wow, I'm sure all the through passengers will love a 800m diversion from their travels because the TTC doesn't know how to route a bus. The Allenford Station could in fact have entrances facing both Birchmount and Agincourt Mall and the Agincourt station in turn facing Kennedy and Agincourt GO. It's not rocket science.

Ellesmere's not worth LRT? A few pages back you claimed Ellesmere & Neilson was an area of equal importance to the entirety of Agincourt.

Route 38 is practically an express service already. Most people get on/off at Markham, Neilson, Morningside and UTSC. Everything else is forests and vacant lot/fields. If rapid transit reaches Morningside it most decidedly MUST approach from Eglinton or Lawrence where there's enough intermediate density to keep a vehicle full at any point throughout the route.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ugh, this proposal would've included the Sheppard East LRT for east-of-VP travellers. The subway would therefore not inconvenience the bulk of riders who are destined for either NYCC or SCC in a hurry, even the Kennedy Commons stop could be optional.

Wow, I'm sure all the through passengers will love a 800m diversion from their travels because the TTC doesn't know how to route a bus. The Allenford Station could in fact have entrances facing both Birchmount and Agincourt Mall and the Agincourt station in turn facing Kennedy and Agincourt GO. It's not rocket science.

The bulk of Sheppard riders are not travelling directly from NYCC to STC...no one ever said they were. What's the point of a subway that never stops? Why would an extra half billion be spent on LRT when the subway's going the same way?

Pedestrian entrances aren't useful for bus riders though - buses have trouble navigating the stairs. The fact remains that Birchmount will be of greater benefit to more people if it goes to Warden station...a bus can travel a few hundred metres far quicker than a person walking can. By going 800m on Sheppard, the Birchmount bus takes people one station closer to Yonge. Until we know exactly where the bus bays at Warden and Allanford are going, the Warden bus bays could very well be *closer* than Allanford's, which will certainly go somewhere on Agincourt Mall's property. And subway platforms aren't as long as you think they are.

 

[CDL.TO]

Wow, I'm sure all the through passengers will love a 800m diversion from their travels because the TTC doesn't know how to route a bus. The Allenford Station could in fact have entrances facing both Birchmount and Agincourt Mall and the Agincourt station in turn facing Kennedy and Agincourt GO. It's not rocket science.

Not rocket science? It's 575 metres between Kennedy & Sheppard and the rail lines. That's almost quadruple the length of a subway platform. Allenford - Birchmount is 400m.

A subway platform will get you from the west side of Kennedy to Gordon Av.

 

[unimaginative2]

The Bellamy Station would actually be closer to Ellesmere than McCowan is because the tailtracks veer southeast into the train yard so it'd likely be just a block north.

It may well be, but nobody transfers from the 95 at McCowan station, either.

I agree with Centennial though, the Markham/Progress intersection is at the bottom of a hill with not much immediate density so I'd locate the station if possible right at the campus gates or inside near the current bus loop.

Transit routes can't just make wild 'U's or loops. It takes a while for them to turn.

As for Richmond Hill my point wasn't to intercept with the BD line (Bloor GO is largely underused) when the Yonge Line's only two stops over but rather to lessen the commutes of people from north of Eglinton (a new station in the Don Mills area along with Oriole and Old Cummer is more practical than a building another multi-stopping subway).

Yes, but the point of the DRL (or at least a very major reason for it) is to relieve Bloor/Yonge station and the Yonge line south of Bloor. A Richmond Hill line would do the things you mention, and that's a reason to improve it. It wouldn't however, do anything for the Yonge line or people south of Bloor.

Ugh, this proposal would've included the Sheppard East LRT for east-of-VP travellers. The subway would therefore not inconvenience the bulk of riders who are destined for either NYCC or SCC in a hurry, even the Kennedy Commons stop could be optional.

Why would you build a subway and an LRT two block away from the other?

If rapid transit reaches Morningside it most decidedly MUST approach from Eglinton or Lawrence where there's enough intermediate density to keep a vehicle full at any point throughout the route.

Why?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

It may well be, but nobody transfers from the 95 at McCowan station, either.

Because it's further north.

Yes, but the point of the DRL (or at least a very major reason for it) is to relieve Bloor/Yonge station and the Yonge line south of Bloor. A Richmond Hill line would do the things you mention, and that's a reason to improve it. It wouldn't however, do anything for the Yonge line or people south of Bloor.

So bypassing Bloor/Yonge altogether is not relieving it? Again I agree there needs to be another subway south of Bloor but without a significant railway to link itself to in the east, most of the Don Mills portion would have to constructed underground. That's even more ridiculously expensive than completing Sheppard.

Why would you build a subway and an LRT two block away from the other?

Ideally I wasn't considering a subway but rather a retrofitted LRT through the current subway tunnel whereby one branch stays on Sheppard and the other veers down to STC. Of course BRT could do the same for even less expense than LRT.

Why?

Why not? Like Scarberian said, it's not about Point A-Point B, but all the stops in between as well. Using Ellesmere the LRT would have major gaps between stops to avoid the extremely underused ones that would likely occur, so something like Markham, Neilson and two stops within 500m of eachother at Morningside. Using Eglinton or Lawrence on the otherhand there's Midland, Danforth/McCowan, Bellamy, Markham, SGC, Guildwood/Orton Park, Galloway, Morningside, UTSC. 133 buses could route from UTSC chopping the long commute from Malvern to the RT in half. Practically all those stops would have moderate to major commercial/residential backing to keep them well used.

Not rocket science? It's 575 metres between Kennedy & Sheppard and the rail lines. That's almost quadruple the length of a subway platform. Allenford - Birchmount is 400m.

Why does Kennedy need a station directly at its intersection? We're talking a couple blocks over in either direction if the major entrances face Birchmount and Agincourt GO and minor ones face Allenford and Collingwood. Even the existing Kennedy Stn is no where near its namesake.

Pedestrian entrances aren't useful for bus riders though - buses have trouble navigating the stairs. The fact remains that Birchmount will be of greater benefit to more people if it goes to Warden station...a bus can travel a few hundred metres far quicker than a person walking can. By going 800m on Sheppard, the Birchmount bus takes people one station closer to Yonge. Until we know exactly where the bus bays at Warden and Allanford are going, the Warden bus bays could very well be *closer* than Allanford's, which will certainly go somewhere on Agincourt Mall's property. And subway platforms aren't as long as you think they are.

"buses have trouble navigating the stairs." ...are you high?

Anyway detouring a bus that far west then rejoining it to Birchmount makes zero sense. Several well-used stations like Dufferin have suitable on street passenger pick-up/drop-off without the need for an actual bus bay. The mall's giving up valuable consumer parking space for a bus bay when Fairview couldn't even provide a direct link (I'm sure Sears loves the transients making their way through) between it and the subway. Wow even when I concede to the notion of a subway extension you still nit-pick over a few hundred metres. I'm telling you, people are too lazy to walk, even for a subway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No one is suggesting a stop right at Kennedy when there's going to be one at Allanford...we're just saying "pedestrian entrances" that lead to 300m tunnels aren't exactly a wise choice.

Unlike the Dufferin bus which runs up and down crossing Bloor, letting riders get out right at the station, the Birchmount bus cannot just let people out at Sheppard because there won't be a station at Birchmount. You honestly expect people to get off at Sheppard and walk through a 400m "pedestrian entrance" tunnel over to Allanford?

 

[unimaginative2]

Because it's further north.

Yes, I know McCowan is further north. Any Bellamy station would also be too far north. Nobody is going to transfer from the 95 to the RT extension, and anyone who really wants to would still find it faster to wander down to Ellesmere station. It would still be faster to I don't even know if the TTC would honour a transfer from the 95 at Bellamy.

So bypassing Bloor/Yonge altogether is not relieving it? Again I agree there needs to be another subway south of Bloor but without a significant railway to link itself to in the east, most of the Don Mills portion would have to constructed underground. That's even more ridiculously expensive than completing Sheppard.

First of all, how is finishing Sheppard, at $1.5 to $2 billion, ridiculously expensive when we're planning $17.5 billion worth of transit projects in the GTA, including $2.5 billion for the ~30,000 people in the fringes of Malvern alone.

Anyway, I'm kind of unclear about what you're saying. Which portion would be constructed underground? Yes, the portion on Pape from the Don Valley to about Eastern Avenue would be underground. Cut and cover, that wouldn't cost very much at all. I refreshed myself with the original DRL reports yesterday, and its estimated cost was about the same as the original Sheppard line. I'd expect that to be about $1.5 billion to $2 billion today, from Pape Station to Spadina and Front.

Why not? Like Scarberian said, it's not about Point A-Point B, but all the stops in between as well.

Sometimes it isn't, but sometimes it is. The Scarborough RT is all about Point A-Point B from STC to Kennedy. The overwhelming majority of riders make that trip, and that's what makes it so obvious for a subway replacement, especially one that would serve 90% of the other riders with a stop at Lawrence.

Using Ellesmere the LRT would have major gaps between stops to avoid the extremely underused ones that would likely occur, so something like Markham, Neilson and two stops within 500m of eachother at Morningside. Using Eglinton or Lawrence on the otherhand there's Midland, Danforth/McCowan, Bellamy, Markham, SGC, Guildwood/Orton Park, Galloway, Morningside, UTSC. 133 buses could route from UTSC chopping the long commute from Malvern to the RT in half. Practically all those stops would have moderate to major commercial/residential backing to keep them well used.

Yes, but anybody riding from UTSC, let alone Morningside Heights, would still find it far faster to go to STC to catch the RT (especially if the RT were replaced by a subway) than to go on a streetcar all the way down to Eglinton and then all the way west to Kennedy.

Why does Kennedy need a station directly at its intersection? We're talking a couple blocks over in either direction if the major entrances face Birchmount and Agincourt GO and minor ones face Allenford and Collingwood. Even the existing Kennedy Stn is no where near its namesake.

It's a lot nearer its namesake than a station on Birchmount would be. Anyway, you still don't seem to be getting the idea that stations are a lot shorter than you think. The Agincourt GO junction to Collingwood is 350 metres, while Birchmount to Allenford is closer to 400 m. Subway stations are only 150 metres long!

Anyway detouring a bus that far west then rejoining it to Birchmount makes zero sense.

That's why you don't rejoin it! Birchmount North, Birchmount South. It's that simple.

Several well-used stations like Dufferin have suitable on street passenger pick-up/drop-off without the need for an actual bus bay. The mall's giving up valuable consumer parking space for a bus bay when Fairview couldn't even provide a direct link (I'm sure Sears loves the transients making their way through) between it and the subway. Wow even when I concede to the notion of a subway extension you still nit-pick over a few hundred metres. I'm telling you, people are too lazy to walk, even for a subway.

Transients? I'm sure Sears is absolutely thrilled to have the subway riders all walking through their store.

Haha...transit geeks are notoriously cranky about the details. It's definitely nothing personal.

 

[Fad225]

earmark $13 million for early engineering studies

Excuse my ignorance, but why the heck does it cost $13million for early studies on the Sheppard East line!
what on earth could cost that much??? heck in some countries it would cost that much to just build the tracks!

 

[CDL.TO]

Sorry to go off topic...

Hey Fad,

What's your avatar a photo of?

 

[unimaginative2]

Just wildly guessing here... is it the recreation of a fallout shelter from Nuit Blanche?