[theman23]

^that way they have room for left turn lanes.

This may sound like a crazy idea, but how about running the streetcars in the opposite direction? So the northbound streetcar runs in the current southbound land and vice versa. This would allow the cars to have their turning lanes and place the stops in front of the traffic light rather than after. I'm sure there are all sorts of safety reasons for not doing this though.

I think the justification is also to ensure the streetcars get through the green lights. If the stop is before the light and passengers need to get on/off, the streetcar will stop and by the time everyone has boarded/departed, the light might have turned red delaying it even further. If the stop is after the light, the streetcar can travel through the intersection on a greenlight before letting people on/off. Once the passengers are on/off, it does not matter what colour the light is because it has already travelled through the intersection. I hope this makes some sense. In theory it would allow quicker travel times, but we all know that in reality, it does not work.

Yeah, this makes sense too. I suppose this whole thing would be a non issue if the streetcars had real signal priority.

 

[interchange42]

If streetcars ran in opposite directions the loading platforms would have to be between the tracks, requiring a wider right of way at platforms, which would require more curves in the tracks, which would cause more wear on the wheels, more squeal...

Unless you put the doors on the other side of the street cars.

Ain't gonna happen.

42

 

[unimaginative2]

I think that Spadina should have a situation where a streetcar never has to wait for a light. All of the vehicles should be tracked with GPS or some comparable system, so lights can anticipate an approaching streetcar and change or stay green so that the streetcar doesn't even have to slow down. There is absolutely no reason why modern technology shouldn't be capable of accomplishing this. If they have to briefly give all cars red lights or change to a two-stage pedestrian crossing, so be it. Along with all-doors boarding at stops, and more modern, low-floor streetcars, this would make Spadina a real, successful rapid transit route that I'd be thrilled to be able to use.

 

[Degnaw]

Unless you put the doors on the other side of the street cars.

Ain't gonna happen.

42

Although they're definetly not going to alter the clrvs, the new streetcars have doors on both sides by default and it might work out (of course, the real issue is that they're not going to do it)

 

[dowlingm]

unimaginative - Spadina is rigged for traffic control - except TTC and roads dept botched it.

 

[CDL.TO]

I think you mean that Spadina is rigged for transit priority* but the works department refuses to switch it on.

*Transit priority not meaning a guaranteed green light for transit vehicles.

 

[doady]

Shouldn't all signalized intersections in Toronto allow for signal priority already? Don't the ambulances and fire trucks use this?

Spadina doesn't have signal priority simply because the streetcars are not properly equipped. I am pretty sure any streetcar or bus route can have signal priority as long as the streetcars and buses themselves have the equipment. Even the average motorist can have signal priority though it is illegal.

 

[unimaginative2]

I know they're set up for transit priority but it's not in use, but that's still only the bare minimum. That's in use right now on Queens Quay, but the streetcars still have to stop at every intersection. I want real transit priority, using GPS or some similar system to ensure that unless there's an emergency or other significant extenuating circumstance, the streetcar will never stop at a red light. There's no reason why they couldn't predict when the streetcar will arrive well in advance and set the lights to ensure that they're green.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So when Spadina cars bunch, will the lights stay green for 5 minutes?

 

[CDL.TO]

Shouldn't all signalized intersections in Toronto allow for signal priority already? Don't the ambulances and fire trucks use this?

At least in downtown Toronto, intersections do not have emergency vehicle priority. I can't speak for Etobicoke, North York, or Scarborough.

Spadina doesn't have signal priority simply because the streetcars are not properly equipped. I am pretty sure any streetcar or bus route can have signal priority as long as the streetcars and buses themselves have the equipment.

The streetcars certainly do have the equipment installed. Transit priority exists at hundreds of other intersections throughout the city and works as intended. Unfortunately, "works as intended" is a very different thing from "works well". The streetcar intersection I am most familiar with for transit priority is Dundas and Bathurst.

I know they're set up for transit priority but it's not in use, but that's still only the bare minimum. That's in use right now on Queens Quay, but the streetcars still have to stop at every intersection. I want real transit priority, using GPS or some similar system to ensure that unless there's an emergency or other significant extenuating circumstance, the streetcar will never stop at a red light. There's no reason why they couldn't predict when the streetcar will arrive well in advance and set the lights to ensure that they're green.

I really think that's impossible on Spadina with its high traffic volumes, high transit vehicle frequency, close intersections, and most importantly the wide intersections (which take a long time for pedestrians to cross). Let's say that at Spadina and Queen, the light for Queen is green. How long would it take to register the streetcar, start the pedestrian countdown, and cycle through yellow, red, then green for the streetcar? 30 seconds at least. Being 30 seconds from the intersection could easily place a streetcar up near Dundas or down at Adelaide. Right now for most east-west cross streets, the light cycle is already at the minimum. You can see, it would be chaos and simply impossible to guarantee green lights. I can't think of any median-ROW setup like Spadina in the world that has guaranteed greens signal priority. And it still wouldn't explain why Spadina drivers drive at a snail's pace.

That's when we get into how the problems with Spadina can't be completely blamed on the lack of signal priority. There simply seems to be a problem with headway management.

 

[drum118]

Centre platforms will not take up more room than the current ones, but would mean that both stops are on one side of the intersection. The sidewalks in this area will be smaller at one point, not the 2 points using far side platforms.

Some way, you would not have to cut existing sidewalk as badly as it has on St Clair as you could reduce the width of the platform in some places by a foot or more because of low ridership load in the first place.

Also, since the centre pole is part of the duel platform, you gain some space back from a stand alone one requirement.

By having a centre platform would allow more room for riders getting on and off than what we have today. You need only one shelter in place of 2 also.

TTC could operate the current fleet the opposite way, but the switch's would be an issues for turning unless you put new crossover before the existing one. The same thing would have to happen at the ends since the platform is on the opposite side and there is no way to put in a new platform.

A number of operation issues will have to dealt with going opposite hand.

Vehicle traffic would be the issue as how you turn them at intersections as well "Oh!! my god the streetcar is coming at me".

As for Transit priority, the city is out to lunch and TTC rolls over on it.

Spadina is a great example of this. It there, but not turn on.

One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind that traffic can stop fairly quickly, but what about the people in the crosswalk? They need at least 20 second notice that the light is going to change on streets like Spadina as where are they to go if the light changes faster than that without getting hit by the streetcar and vehicle traffic.

Giving transit vehicles 100% control over the green light has major issues. As noted above, but how do you control crossing transit lines and who gets the light first?

The streetcar should get the advancing green first before the left hand/u-turn vehicles at non transit intersections.

The new LRT should come with doors on both sides +if+ TTC is smart.

 

[ShonTron]

At least in downtown Toronto, intersections do not have emergency vehicle priority. I can't speak for Etobicoke, North York, or Scarborough.

I don't think anywhere in the City are there emergency overrides of traffic signals. It's very much a 905 thing.

That's when we get into how the problems with Spadina can't be completely blamed on the lack of signal priority. There simply seems to be a problem with headway management.

This is where line supervisiors would come in handy. They could serve a dual purpose of allowing passengers in the back doors with transfer or pass (speeding up boarding at stops like NB Dundas or Queen), and ensuring that bunching is kept to a minimum, particuarly northbound, perhaps even by telling the first streetcar in a line to just not stop.

 

[unimaginative2]

They do have line supervisors on Spadina. They're often standing around the Queen intersection (or at Spadina station in winter). They tend to always chat with the driver for a few moments as they pass, but they don't assist with fare collection.

 

[Spoonman]

They do have line supervisors on Spadina. They're often standing around the Queen intersection (or at Spadina station in winter). They tend to always chat with the driver for a few moments as they pass, but they don't assist with fare collection.

Actually, just a couple days ago there was a line supervisor at Queen and Spadina, and he was ushering all metropass/transfer passengers into the rear doors.

Granted, that's the first time I've ever seen one on that route.

 

[Towered]

Proposed Transit City construction schedule

Courtesy of the Transit Toronto mailing list:

http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f3401/_conv.htm

- Sheppard East LRT: engineering and design work in 2007 for a
construction start early in 2009

- Etobicoke-Finch West LRT: engineering and design work in 2008 for a
construction start late in 2009

- Eglinton-Crosstown LRT: engineering and design work in 2008 for a
construction start in 2010

- Waterfront West LRT: engineering and design of a new loop at
Kipling Avenue/Lake Shore Boulevard, and purchase of special
trackwork for a new loop at Park Lawn Road/Lake Shore Boulevard for a
construction start in 2009, and

- Maintenance and Storage Facilities: engineering and design work in
2008 for a construction start in 2010.

Implementation plans for the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, Jane Street
LRT, and Don Mills LRT will be addressed in subsequent reports to the
Commission. (there's a lot of discussion of Lakeshore West in the
document - clearly that one will be more of a series of incremental
upgrades that one massive construction project).

There's also a comment that "Sheppard East, Etobicoke-Finch West, and
Eglinton-Crosstown ... may have to initially operate independent of
the existing TTC streetcar network and each other, possibly based out
of interim storage facilities".