[LAz]

though a Danforth extension would be the backbone of a useful network in Scarborough

Eh, guys, tell me, why do that? What is wrong with the RT? I kinda like it. If there should be a change I'd rather make it a "blue line", than have it eaten up by the b-d line.

The extension beyond STC will move only some of the people currently using the Progress bus...less than 8000 people a day. Actually, the Progress bus will still need to operate, so zero bus routes will be replaced.

Who cares? It will get cars off the road. It would provide rapid transit to more people.

 

[kEiThZ]

Eh, guys, tell me, why do that? What is wrong with the RT?

It's old. It's falling apart. It's past its service life. The OEM doesn't makes spares any more. And it's always overcrowded because of a lack of capacity.

Who cares? It will get cars off the road. It would provide rapid transit to more people.

Ummm. Those people already are taking transit. All you are doing is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to move them on trams instead of buses.

 

[kEiThZ]

I haven't been involved in that part of the discussion; I don't know why you are raising this to me; it's not my issue.

The justification for the extension comes from the fact that it will supposedly benefit boatloads of Malvernites. So I pose the question to anybody who supports the extension. Which Malvernites will benefit? Show me. Point them out.

 

[nfitz]

The justification for the extension comes from the fact that it will supposedly benefit boatloads of Malvernites. So I pose the question to anybody who supports the extension. Which Malvernites will benefit? Show me. Point them out.

Fair enough ... perhaps we can save $1-billion and cancel the SRT extension; and spend the money on something useful, like half the DRL.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The thing is that the B-D should be extended to STC to make STC a node. It'll be really connected with the rest of the city, and from there you can have little LRTs and busses radiating out of STC.
Right now, it's limited by capacity and convenience from Scarborough being fully integrated into transit in the rest of the city. That's the problem with it.

 

[kEiThZ]

Fair enough ... perhaps we can save $1-billion and cancel the SRT extension; and spend the money on something useful, like half the DRL.

Except you still have to do something about replacing the SRT and at this point it's pretty clear that refurbishment costs a lot more than 400 million.

 

[kEiThZ]

The thing is that the B-D should be extended to STC to make STC a node. It'll be really connected with the rest of the city, and from there you can have little LRTs and busses radiating out of STC.
Right now, it's limited by capacity and convenience from Scarborough being fully integrated into transit in the rest of the city. That's the problem with it.

Exactly. The SELRT wouldn't be as big a deal if they weren't messing up STC as a hub too. STC should be a hub with LRTs running out to Malvern, north and south on McCowan, TTC and GO bus hubs for NE Scarborough and the eastern GTA. Leaving STC as the only urban growth centre in the 416 without a subway as a trunk line, is a huge mistake and a big missed opportunity.

 

[LAz]

Except you still have to do something about replacing the SRT and at this point it's pretty clear that refurbishment costs a lot more than 400 million.

Upgrade it to be an elevated Metro, like the Chicago L lines.


Some stations get good ridership per day. Even McCowan gets about 5,000 people a day on average. I think that this is a fine number.
It is also important to give people an alternative to the car.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Eh, guys, tell me, why do that? What is wrong with the RT? I kinda like it. If there should be a change I'd rather make it a "blue line", than have it eaten up by the b-d line.

Who cares? It will get cars off the road. It would provide rapid transit to more people.

What is it with people in other cities telling Toronto to build elevated lines?

Will you like the SRT even when the vehicles fall apart around you like The Brave Engineer? When they shut down the SRT for 3 years and muck up what should be an easily managed bustitution (though one that likely won't be as fast as the SRT, will be at the mercy of traffic, and may require new and more distant bus bays to handle the 80 or so necessary bus shuttles), we could be talking about how many cars are added to the road...we already know that none will be taken off the road after it's done.

Only if you low-ball the subway costs. The extension and conversion is $1.4-billion; and most of that is for the extension, and the new platform at Kennedy. The conversion itself is only a fraction of the budget. To build subway for that money, you'd have to achieve $233-million a kilometre - which is lower than any current planning number. But even if you could - you just can't compare the numbers. You have to compare the cost of the upgrade - and perhaps the Kennedy platform to the 6-km subway. Anything else is deceptive.

Spend five seconds poring over what the actual per/km pricetag is for various components and you'll know that it could easily be done for $233M/km, but a lot depends on how much of the station at STC can be reused, whether a station will be built in the hydro corridor at Lawrence or if they'll acquire land for one, whether or not they'll need or tie yard improvements to the cost like they did with Spadina, etc. Just because something should be done or could be done doesn't mean the TTC/city will have any interest in making it happen. And if the city did built it, the only alignment they've ever looked at (also the shortest and most direct alignment) was through Brimley & Lawrence, which means a 5km, 2 station extension, which lowers the cost even further. It may or may not be the ideal alignment but that's what would happen. You would know this if you had any interest in Scarborough and not just an interest in posting contrarian nonsense. 6km! OMG, you're being deceptive! How can you compare a 6km extension to a 5km extension???

This thread is about progress on Transit City. That's why I post here. You have no interest in Transit City, and only seem to highjack the thread with this NIMBYism. Why do you post here?

I posted here to point out that Keithz was right and Justin10000 was wrong and that the SRT extension is an amazingly useless waste of time and money. You posted because you go from thread to thread replying to every post I make even when the subject matter is completely foreign to you, hijacking the thread with ramblings about fruit and laments that everyone else (but never you) is rude. ... learn what NIMBY actually means.

 

[ShonTron]

This thread has become a moderator's nightmare.

A so-called "Progress" thread encompassing all of Transit City LRT is difficult to begin with. So it's been renamed. There's lots of threads now about Transit City, so there's little point in continuing this one as is.

 

[LAz]

What is it with people in other cities telling Toronto to build elevated lines?

Will you like the SRT even when the vehicles fall apart around you like The Brave Engineer? When they shut down the SRT for 3 years and muck up what should be an easily managed bustitution (though one that likely won't be as fast as the SRT, will be at the mercy of traffic, and may require new and more distant bus bays to handle the 80 or so necessary bus shuttles), we could be talking about how many cars are added to the road...we already know that none will be taken off the road after it's done.

You do not address the question as to why not maintain an elevated structure. You respond to that with some weird thing. Let me say this - Toronto already built the elevated thing, so it's there. Lets just maintain or upgrade it?

The only major closure that I have ever heard of on a metro was Chicago's insane closure of the modern day Green-Line, for two years, for massive rehab. The green line is however a few times longer than the elevated RT.
If there had to be rehab, I think that conversion to elevated metro would be quite good.
Another thing that was done in Chicago was the brown line's capacity expansion. They rebuilt almost every station on the line, and they replaced a lot of track. The metro was running the whole time while rehab was taking place. It is also significantly longer than the scarborough line.

So I think that this would be a quick solution that does not cost a whole lot. It would also help maintain some sort of "identity" to/in scarborough.

 

[nfitz]

Except you still have to do something about replacing the SRT and at this point it's pretty clear that refurbishment costs a lot more than 400 million.

If the entire project is $1.4-billion, and there is 5.5 km of grade-separated LRT, including a lot of tunnel, the refurbishment can't cost much more than $400 million, once you subtract 5.5 km of new tunnel, the new underground platform at Kennedy, and the new vehicles. I'd be surprised if is even $400 million. Is there any documents in the EA breaking down the costs for each component?

 

[kEiThZ]

You do not address the question as to why not maintain an elevated structure. You respond to that with some weird thing. Let me say this - Toronto already built the elevated thing, so it's there. Lets just maintain or upgrade it?

Toronto is not Chicago. Get over it.

It's not an issue of keeping it elevated or not. Most of the SRT is not elevated today. The issue is capacity. The SRT is over-crowded leaving STC. That's the second station. In such a scenario it makes sense to extend the subway to bring capacity to STC.

Also, by elevating the extension, it's forced the planners to skip very important intersections like Bellamy, Markham and Milner. Markham has one of the busiest bus routes in Scarborough. Milner is one of the busiest bus routes out of Malvern and the corridor intersects Milner at Milner Business Court, a potential major trip generator and possible site for TOD. Elevating the line isn't a problem per se. It's only an issue when that choice impacts service and forces the line to skip major trip generators.

I know you are from Chicago and still live there. That doesn't mean that everything that you have to frame everything in terms of what Chicago does. Not everything they do there is right. And not everything done in Toronto is wrong. The SRT may have been an alright compromise for its time. But to leave the only provincially designated urban growth centre in the 416 without a subway connection is a major mistake that could severly impact urban development, growth and transit use patterns in Scarborough for decades to come.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Exactly. The SELRT wouldn't be as big a deal if they weren't messing up STC as a hub too. STC should be a hub with LRTs running out to Malvern, north and south on McCowan, TTC and GO bus hubs for NE Scarborough and the eastern GTA. Leaving STC as the only urban growth centre in the 416 without a subway as a trunk line, is a huge mistake and a big missed opportunity.

I still firmly believe that there needs to be a real, uninterrupted true RT link between STC and NYCC, and throughout Northern Scarborough. But apart from the SLRT, I agree with that vision. STC being a hub for BRT or LRT up McCowan and through STC to Malvern, and busses throughout Scarborough and to Markham and Pickering. For that, Scarborough really needs those two RT connections with the rest of the city, but most importantly the B-D.

 

[ShonTron]

There are lots of "progress" threads that I have been setting up. I've been moving a lot of the progress stuff out of here lately and into the individual projects. Check those out. And no, comments about any progress, pro or con, will not be removed if they stay on topic. This thread has become mostly a discussion and debate on TC as a whole, so it will remain as such.

Don't start, nfitz. Our role is not to censor opinions you may not agree with either.