[LAz]

It's not an issue of keeping it elevated or not. Most of the SRT is not elevated today. The issue is capacity. The SRT is over-crowded leaving STC. That's the second station. In such a scenario it makes sense to extend the subway to bring capacity to STC.

Also, by elevating the extension, it's forced the planners to skip very important intersections like Bellamy, Markham and Milner. Markham has one of the busiest bus routes in Scarborough. Milner is one of the busiest bus routes out of Malvern and the corridor intersects Milner at Milner Business Court, a potential major trip generator and possible site for TOD. Elevating the line isn't a problem per se. It's only an issue when that choice impacts service and forces the line to skip major trip generators.

Correct moi if moi is wrong...

but the RT has its own right of way, does not stop and does not impede auto traffic along its route.
With the huge costs of tunneling, I think that it would be best to maintain a metro at ground level and elevated level. This would in effect bring the metro to scarborough without tunneling.
Like I mentioned before, the Chicago brown line uderwent a long "capacity expansion program". I don't see why the RT could not do the same - it would be much cheaper than to tunnel. That money is needed elsewhere, to extend the sheppard line for example.

If the line is extended beyond McCowan, it could then go underground. The thing is that the RT is above ground already, and so why spend so much money to move what we have underground? Just fix it up a bit instead.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Who gives a ... what Chicago did? The question is, what is correct for Scarborough.

It makes no sense to dump thousands of riders off at Kennedy when they are bound for STC, a mere two subway stops away. That transfer, the unreliability of the SRT, the overcrowding is all actually convincing people to bypass the SRT and heading to straight to Kennedy or avoid using transit in Scarborough altogether.

And by the way, the money won't go to the Sheppard line. Chances are it won't be spent in Scarborough period. And if Scarborough did have to prioritize between the two, replacing the SRT would win by a long shot. It's been a long demand of the community. Expansion on Sheppard was hardly the utmost priority for Scarborough until Transfer City came along.

 

[LAz]

Your only point is the transfer at Kennedy, from what I see.

Take your overcrowding aside - elevated metro would fix that. Your only point becomes the transfer thing - and that might not even take much time. Unreliability? -upgrade it so that this won't be an issue, nor will overcrowding, which will take away the bypassers. So, we hit a few birds with one stone.




The money is not there is the first place, to be even able to think of digging. Money has to come from somewhere for both of these. Making the SRT an elevated metro, would enhance the line for less money than digging - it would not cut out the mccown stop (thus truncating it a bit) like you propose, and it would at least mean that we could use that money from digging to dig elsewhere. Sure, I don't think that the idiots in power would dig elsewhere, but that would be a possibility at the least. We need many more subway lines/underground metro lines in Toronto. Changing SRT into an elevated metro is not compromising the current position, it is only enhancing it, and giving more possibilities for metro construction elsewhere.


Now heck, if money was unlimited, lets tunnel everywhere. But, there are limited resources - they seem to be more and more limited as time goes on...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If someone had a tidbit of news about a planning change or a funding cancellation or the start of demolition on an expropriated building or whatever else, the last place they'd be wise to put it would be in a compendium like this thread that already has over 2000 posts.

The money is not there is the first place, to be even able to think of digging. Money has to come from somewhere for both of these. Making the SRT an elevated metro, would enhance the line for less money than digging - it would not cut out the mccown stop (thus truncating it a bit) like you propose, and it would at least mean that we could use that money from digging to dig elsewhere. Sure, I don't think that the idiots in power would dig elsewhere, but that would be a possibility at the least. We need many more subway lines/underground metro lines in Toronto. Changing SRT into an elevated metro is not compromising the current position, it is only enhancing it, and giving more possibilities for metro construction elsewhere.

Do you mean rebuilding the SRT infrastructure so that subway trains can travel continuously west and north of Kennedy station on the exact corridor the SRT does? You do know that the subway is 3 floors below the SRT and that subways can't typically make 90 degree vertical turns, right? (Though maybe a Maglev could be raised up from the basement by turning the magnets' power up to 11...)

This would require extremely elaborate renovations, if it's possible at all. Basically the entire SRT corridor would need to be rebuilt - assuming the elevated structure can even handle the subway conversion - and you'd either have to build a new subway tunnel branching off the existing line somewhere between Kennedy and Warden, maybe near Birchmount, or you'd have to build a new subway tunnel looping towards Midland and back north, going under the GO line, finally running *at-grade* (the SRT is not elevated west/south of Midland) somewhere closer to Lawrence than Eglinton. You'd also need to rebuild the other tunnel under the GO line...or rebuild the whole GO line. If you're looking for a cheaper option than a simple 2-stop extension via Brimley & Lawrence or even a tunnel up Midland or possibly even McCowan, or running in some tunnel/at-grade/elevated combo up Midland, this is not it. It might be theoretically possible to save some small quantity of dollars compared to other subway options, but it would also require a very long SRT shutdown and have all sorts of complications that a tunnelled extension that retains Kennedy station would not have. Removing rapid transit east of Warden to save a few million dollars = epic fail that will cost much more than that in lost revenue and the expense of bustitution...probably 100 buses would be needed to ply the corridor east of Warden during construction.

 

[Rainforest]

The converted S(L)RT should not be overcrowded. The current SRT is overcrowded because TTC does not have enough cars. It only has enough to run on 3'30'' headways (17 trains per hour), with capacity of about 300 passengers per train, that gives a bit over 5,000 pphpd and this is not enough.

After the conversion, assuming that they have enough LRT cars and the limit is based on headways, they can run on 2' headways, or 30 trains per hour. The capacity of each 3-car train will be about 500 people, that gives 15,000 pphpd. The demand between STC and Kennedy will not exceed that level; and if it did, Danforth line would be in big trouble.

Also, it should be possible to overhaul the bus routes so that most of buses serving north-eastern Scarborough run to, or through, the Sheppard / Markham SLRT station. For example:
- Combined 131 / 134: 131 McLevin route turns south on Markham, east on Sheppard to the SLRT station, than north on Washburn way and Tapscott as present-day 134.
- 132 Milner turns south on Progress and serves it instead of 134; thus, it gets to STC and also connects to the Centennial SLRT station.
- Sections of Nugget Ave and Milner Ave between McCowan and Markham are served by a new loop route operating off STC.
- 102 Markham bus simply detours to Sheppard / Progress station; the length of detour would be about same as for Wilson bus to Wilson subway station.
- 133 Neilson bus from Malvern runs to Sheppard / Progress station and terminates there.
- Another route runs from the Sheppard / Progress station via the southern half of Neilson Rd to Ellesmere, then to UTSC, or Canmore Blvd (current loop of 116A,E).

However, the concerns about capacity mismatch west and east of STC are valid. Basically, the refusal to extend subway mandates a high-end LRT implementation, and we have to extend it east of STC just because we don't want transfers at both Kennedy and STC. Hence, the eastern part of SLRT will be costly, have much excess capacity, and have to skip important intermediate stations.

 

[kEiThZ]

That addresses current overcrowding. It does not fairly take into account the immense development taking place at STC.

And it does not address the transfer issue. Imagine they stopped the Yonge line at Sheppard and you had to transfer and ride a little overcrowded train just to get to the bus terminal at Finch. That's how every Scarborough residents views the SRT and the transfer at Kennedy. It's unnecessary and useless. And the only reason it's being preserved is so that money can be spent building an extension that won't make a dent in any bus route except the 134.

If they had simply asked Scarborough residents what they wanted with all the money planned on trams in Scarborough, they would have said two things:

Priority 1: Extend the Bloor-Danforth subway to STC
Priority 2: Take Sheppard as far east as possible.

But by far, you would find that most residents support priority 1. I haven't met a single Scarborough resident who thinks ending the subway at Kennedy is a great idea. Even those who support refurbishment with LRT, only do so, because they think a subway is "unaffordable", which of course isn't the case. It's just a matter of deciding what's the priority, bring the subway to STC or extending the RT to Malvern. Unfortunately, as planned they are picking a halfway solution. The SLRT barely touches Malvern, meaning it relieves no bus routes and does not save anybody ride time or transfers.

 

[LAz]

Do you mean rebuilding the SRT infrastructure so that subway trains can travel continuously west and north of Kennedy station on the exact corridor the SRT does? You do know that the subway is 3 floors below the SRT and that subways can't typically make 90 degree vertical turns, right? (Though maybe a Maglev could be raised up from the basement by turning the magnets' power up to 11...)

lol
You make me smile. This place would suck without humor.


But no, I would like to see a sort of "new line" that goes where the RT does. That would be a cheaper solution. The only thing about ti that I see problematic is the transfer, but jee, it would save so much money that I'd live with that one transfer for some time.

 

[kEiThZ]

But no, I would like to see a sort of "new line" that goes where the RT does. That would be a cheaper solution. The only thing about ti that I see problematic is the transfer, but jee, it would save so much money that I'd live with that one transfer for some time.

You have no clue what you are talking about. I think you are just pointlessly pontificating. What exactly does a "new line" mean? The cheapest proposal is what Transfer City proposes: refurbishment and replacement of the ART Mk I vehicles with 3 car LRT trains. It makes use of the existing tracks, tunnel, elevated structures and stations.

And that transfer is not a minor detail for most Scarborough residents. Most of us would be willing to see money spent to get rid of that transfer. You might be willing to with one transfer for some time, but Scarborough residents are sick of living with that transfer. They've had to put up with it for more than 25 years.

 

[nfitz]

The converted S(L)RT should not be overcrowded. The current SRT is overcrowded because TTC does not have enough cars. It only has enough to run on 3'30'' headways (17 trains per hour), with capacity of about 300 passengers per train, that gives a bit over 5,000 pphpd and this is not enough.

Has there been any information on the timeframe of getting extra Mark I cars from Vancouver?

 

[Fresh Start]

Laz,

Talk about going two steps back! We don't revamp Scarborough RT right-of-way into new a right-of-way for the Bloor-Danforth line. That land is much better utilized to create a new southbound trackbed for the Stoufville GO train line such that all-day bidirectional commuter-rail service can commence along it. The elevated structure perhaps can be converted over into a BRT busway for express trips of the 95 bus feeding into Scarborough Ctr Stn. The wisest thing for the TTC to do at this point is to keep the SRT as is through to 2015 meanwhile proactively expanding the Bloor-Danforth line (which is oriented east-to-west by Kennedy; not north-south like the SRT ROW) to Brimley-Eglinton, then to follow Danforth-McCowan Road northwards to SCC. Following this alignment the new subway stop at Scarborough Centre would be situated a lot further east than the existing station, making it physically a lot closer to the existing McCowan RT Stn and thus capturing all of its ridership base. In addition, given the proximity of Highway 401 and the availability of a road's width of crown land on the south-hand side of that corridor; it is very possible for a dedicated bus-only ROW to be constructed which can have direct stops near Consilium Pl, near Bellamy/Progress, Markham Rd, right at the main entrance of Progress Campus, at Sheppard East/Neilson, Malvern Town Centre; not to mention Morningside, UTSC, the Kingston Rd corridor, etc. So we could spend at or under $2 billion dollars and still wind up serving more areas and neighbourhoods than the single SRT ROW could ever allow.

That's the epitome of progress right there. What the TTC is currently doing is an exercise in quick-fix decisionmaking that will have politicians in 2040 wailing: "Why didn't they just complete the dang subway line to SCC when the had the chance? At $600 million/kilometre we can never think of attempting it now!" Personally speaking, I think the TTC can their delusions of short-sighted mediocrity and shove it.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ +1

It's exactly because they didn't extend the subway before that we are where we are now. They foisted the hapless SRT on us instead.

Now they use the same excuse again. This is just a ploy to constantly treat Scarborough residents like second class citizens and avoid the work that just needs to be done.

In 2040, they'll again be saying it's too expensive and proposing 4 car trams as an alternative or suggesting that high speed bike lanes from STC to Kennedy will be sufficient!

 

[unimaginative2]

Not to wade into this debate but I just had to point out the absurdity of saying "If you're going to extend the subway for the same cost, you'd have to build it for $233 million a kilometre and that's impossible!" Of course it's not impossible. Cities around the world have built tunnels for half of that. The Canada line, for example. It cost two billion for over 19 km of rapid transit, 9 km of which was in a tunnel. And before people start huffing and puffing about how those tunnels are somehow different, they are exactly the same dimensions as Toronto subway trains and it also includes major water crossings. Yes, the stations are smaller, but it also includes four times as many underground stations as a Kennedy-SRT extension. I'm not even convinced that the whole Scarborough subway extension has to be underground. Brimley's not such a pristine street that it couldn't handle an elevated subway line like along No. 3 Road in Richmond.

The Montreal Metro was extended to Laval for less than $150 million per kilometre in 2007. Not to mention cities like Madrid which built their subway for around $90 million per kilometre over the last decade. By the way, Madrid is building 53 km of full subway in four years. Dublin's cost of $150 million per kilometre iscausing much hand-wringing.

We're already rebuilding Kennedy station, we're already completely rebuilding the line, we're going to have to buy new rolling stock and build new maintenance facilities. I wouldn't be surprised if the LRT conversion/RT renovation wound up costing more, all in, than a subway extension with reasonable cost management. It sure as hell will cost a lot more to operate a completely separate system over the long term.

 

[nfitz]

Not to wade into this debate but I just had to point out the absurdity of saying "If you're going to extend the subway for the same cost, you'd have to build it for $233 million a kilometre and that's impossible!"

As no one here has said that it's impossible to build it for $233 million a kilometre, I really don't see the need to point out the absurdity of saying something no one has said.

 

[unimaginative2]

So if the subway can be built for the same or less than the "cheaper" compromise of renovation or conversion plus a comparatively unnecessary extension, why aren't we doing it?

 

[kEiThZ]

So if the subway can be built for the same or less than the "cheaper" compromise of renovation or conversion plus a comparatively unnecessary extension, why aren't we doing it?

Beacause Transfer City is about quantity not quality. It counts success by how many kms of lines are built and how many stops they have. Whether those lines effectively move people or not is irrelevant.

Really, who is going to be using the extension other than Centennial college students now that they cut it short at Sheppard?

And the worst part of it, is that in a few years, they'll say that there's insufficient ridership to justify finishing the line to Malvern, after they handicapped it right from the start. Seems to be an ongoing theme when building transit lines in Scarborough. Cut them short of their ultimate terminus and main trip generators, then argue that they are failures because they don't meet a mythical threshold, and then put in a lower grade of transit the rest of the way.

The fun with this line will be awesome. It'll be empty till about STC. It'll still be standing room only after STC, which means most riders will still be dissatisfied. Though you'll now have more elbow room I guess. The transfer that pisses people off will still be there. And if they do run every second train to Malvern, when classes let out at Centennial it'll be standing room at McCowan. Can't wait! It'll truly be entertaining to see how much people are pissed after the city spent a billiond dollars. Can't wait to ask fellow riders if they think the expenditure was worthwhile.

And if anybody thinks this line is getting extended to MTC eventually, think again. You don't overbuild a bus terminal (at a point which currently see 2 bus routes runt past it) on developable land on Sheppard for nothing. That bus terminal on Sheppard is on par for idiocy with the underground monstrosity they planned at Steeles.