[Rainforest]

I'm not sure why Steve used those numbers. But in a presentation on December 18, 2007 by TTC's Superintendent of Streetcar Engineering, they identified that the CLRV crush load was 132 and the ALRV crush load was 205, with new LRV (which hadn't been selected at that point) as approximately 260.

Like Niftz siad, 280 passengers is probably the number of passengers each LRV will be able to carry at crush. I checked the Bombardier technical data, and LRVs for Istanbul can carry 272 passengers at 6 persons per metre squared.
Croydon Tramlink's LRV have a capacity of 208 passengers at 4 persons per metre squared.
I believe a TC LRV will have at least a capacity of 200 passengers, depending on the seating arrangement.

Well, 200 per either LRV or a subway car seems reasonable. The footprints being 74 sq.m. and 73 sq.m. respectively, but of course those are external footprints. Less the width of walls, the cabins, the seats etc, space for standees should be about 50 - 55 sq.m. At 4 persons per metre, that gives 200 or 220 per car.

But 260 in LRV, let alone 280, does not reconcile well with the reported subway car capacity. Unless, somehow they use lower load factor for subway cars than for LRV.

 

[nfitz]

But 260 in LRV, let alone 280, does not reconcile well with the reported subway car capacity. Unless, somehow they use lower load factor for subway cars than for LRV.

Perhaps they do ... in my experience, I've seen a lot more people stuffed in a streetcar (a lot less personal space) than I ever see on the subway. I'm not sure whether they'll be able to achieve the same crush though with 5 doors, and without someone parked at the stop telling people to move back, and not moving until they do. Even the ALRVs dont' seem to get as crushed at the back as the CLRVs.

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps they do ... in my experience, I've seen a lot more people stuffed in a streetcar (a lot less personal space) than I ever see on the subway. I'm not sure whether they'll be able to achieve the same crush though with 5 doors, and without someone parked at the stop telling people to move back, and not moving until they do. Even the ALRVs dont' seem to get as crushed at the back as the CLRVs.

Try Yonge subway northbound, at Dundas around 5.30 or 6 pm. But wait till the school year starts.

Sometimes, people do not need to hold rails ... they can't fall anyway.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

What contradiction? We know that ridership won't go up and that drivers won't get out of their cars and that opening the backyards and strip malls and industrial land east of Agincourt up to development can only add cars (even if only a small amount of redevelopment actually occurs).

We know? Who's "we?" Who do you speak/assume for? Do you mean Justin10000? kettal? Keithz? gweed? Fresh Start? Coruscunti Cog whatever? The homeless guy sitting in College station waiting for handouts? Do you want to wager some money on this? You seem soooooooooooooo sure that ridership won't go up at all.

We've always known this. By the way, the Sheppard bus will remain east of wherever the LRT ends (down to Port Union) and they may not retain the 190, and buses will continue to run on Sheppard east of Don Mills, so the whole corridor's ridership won't even be absorbed onto the LRT and some rides may be lost.

Well genius, of course some rides will be lost, and not even a subway out to Port Union will help that (even if one was ever built out that way for some insane reason).

Perhaps a thousand condo units and cafes will get built on the backyards fronting Sheppard in Malvern, generating a few hundred transit trips, some of which made on Sheppard, but if you think that adding 500 or 1000 rides after spending over a billion dollars is proof of anything that supports your lame oneliners in any conceivable way, you're out to lunch.

You really do enjoy putting words in my mouth don't you? And you're saying I'm out to lunch? Haha goof.

Nice to see your tradition of self-proclaimed "quality" posts continue.

Self-proclaimed eh? What did I do to receive such godly status here?

 

[SimonP]

Something I found interesting in the latest Nanos poll. Across the entire city, 73% of people support more subways while 68.6% of people support more LRT. But in the old city of Toronto those numbers are almost reversed. There 72.2% support more LRT while 69.1% support more subways. This seems to reflect UrbanToronto as well, where many of the strongest subway proponents don't even live in the city.

 

[nfitz]

Try Yonge subway northbound, at Dundas around 5.30 or 6 pm. But wait till the school year starts.

Fair enough ... I'm normally on the BD in rush-hour, and only on Yonge later on. Perhaps someone should do a quick head count when it's like that. Just the quarter of the car you are in, then multiply by 4!

 

[GenerationW]

This seems to reflect UrbanToronto as well, where many of the strongest subway proponents don't even live in the city.

He assumed, grasping at straws.

Too bad they didn't include a "subways vs. LRT" preference in addition to yes or no for each individually.

 

[Rainforest]

Fair enough ... I'm normally on the BD in rush-hour, and only on Yonge later on. Perhaps someone should do a quick head count when it's like that. Just the quarter of the car you are in, then multiply by 4!

Good suggestion.

Normally I try to avoid that segment (go up University and then transfer via Bloor if I need to go up Yonge line), but will do that count 2 or 3 times.

 

[Rainforest]

Something I found interesting in the latest Nanos poll. Across the entire city, 73% of people support more subways while 68.6% of people support more LRT. But in the old city of Toronto those numbers are almost reversed. There 72.2% support more LRT while 69.1% support more subways. This seems to reflect UrbanToronto as well, where many of the strongest subway proponents don't even live in the city.

Remarkably, all avenues wide enough for a surface LRT ROW (except St Clair, Spadina and University all of which have rail transit already) are located outside the old city of Toronto.

 

[Fresh Start]

Something I found interesting in the latest Nanos poll. Across the entire city, 73% of people support more subways while 68.6% of people support more LRT. But in the old city of Toronto those numbers are almost reversed. There 72.2% support more LRT while 69.1% support more subways. This seems to reflect UrbanToronto as well, where many of the strongest subway proponents don't even live in the city.

Those Old City of Toronto citizens polled perhaps didn't realize that a subway across their neighbourhoods was a viable option at this time. Had they known that the DRL would be first in priority (most urgently needed) ahead of any of suburbs-only Transit City LRT lines, support would probably have spiked 90+ percent in favor.

 

[Fresh Start]

Well genius, of course some rides will be lost, and not even a subway out to Port Union will help that (even if one was ever built out that way for some insane reason).

A multimillion dollar light-rail line to Rouge Park to serve about a dozen people an hour that far east is just as insane.

 

[kEiThZ]

Something I found interesting in the latest Nanos poll. Across the entire city, 73% of people support more subways while 68.6% of people support more LRT. But in the old city of Toronto those numbers are almost reversed. There 72.2% support more LRT while 69.1% support more subways. This seems to reflect UrbanToronto as well, where many of the strongest subway proponents don't even live in the city.

The further out you are from the core, the more speed matters. This is something Transit City (not LRT...which can be fast if well designed) proponents don't understand well. Transit City prioritized local travel over regional travel. And that's just odd to most people in the 'burbs (where most TC lines are), because local travel has never really been that much of an issue (except for parts of Sheppard (DM to Warden maybe?) and Eglinton in the central parts).

If you live in Malvern or Rexdale, a LRT to get you to the subway just does not make as much sense as simply bringing the subway closer to you. LRT may be more comfortable than the bus. Maybe a tad faster than the bus. But it does not compare to a 30 km/h underground rocket.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Closer to 36 or 37 km/h with new trains

 

[nfitz]

The further out you are from the core, the more speed matters.

If you live that far out of the core that the speed differential is going to make that much difference, then it's inmaterial, as there isn't money around to start building subway down to Sheppard and Morningside; Finch and Albion, Don Mills and Steeles, Lakeshore and Browns Line ... etc.

 

[Justin10000]

^^May as well just buy a car, if you want to live out in Northeast Scaroborough, and speed, and time matters.