[rbt]

Taxpayers - ???

Taxpayers - 1

If we believe the US infrastructure ROI numbers apply to Canada, then getting something done now versus waiting 5 years for another option to be tabled and funded; assumming equal capacity for the short-term (30 years -- and a 500foot long LRT train in a tunnel has roughly the same capacity as a 500foot Toronto Rocket in a tunnel); the tax-payers win even if a conversion takes place at great cost in 50 years.

In 50 years Eglinton will be ready for a massive rebuild anyway (tunnel liners, station design, control/signalling system, power supply system, etc.); just as all other lines have been updated piece by piece.

 

[kEiThZ]

LRTistas 1

SOSers 0

Must be why Pantalone is doing so well in the polls....

 

[nfitz]

$770 million / 182 = $4.2 million apiece. This is notably cheaper than legacy streetcars, which came at $6 million apiece.

No it isn't. press release for the original order is at: http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...press-releases/details?docID=0901260d800a7066
That order was for 204 cars for $851 million - $4.17 million apiece. What you are forgetting is that the budget authorization of $1.3 billion by TTC included taxes, etc. and also a $293 million allowance for spare parts, potential changes, etc. Presumably Metrolinx has also got an allowance for similiar; what we are seeing today is just the Bombardier side of things for the shareholders, etc.

Did Toronto Star get it right? I read several times that the expected capacity of new LRVs is about 175 passengers.

The Bombardier press release clearly says "car capacity for more than 280 passengers" The Bombardier press release last year for the original purchase said "car capacity for more than 240 passengers" (presumably the disparity is that Bombardier originally reported these cars as being 2.54 metres wide, as opposed to the 2.65-m width we have heard about more recently).

The crush capacity of a CLRV has previously been reported as 132. This vehicle will be more than twice as long than a CLRV. 280 under crush conditions doesn't seem completely out of line.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Must be why Pantalone is doing so well in the polls....

Pantalone actually saw a spike in the poll the Globe & Mail did. The Star poll was a different story. So, in conclusion... the polls at this point consistently show little aside from voter malaise for all these candidates?

At this point I'm thinking about changing my name to "John Undecided", entering the race, and kicking ass.

 

[kEiThZ]

That should put an end to the mayoral candidates proposing to cancel these 4 LRT routes; I can't imagine that the province would be very happy to have to pay out Bombardier to cancel this contract!

If I understand this correctly, that's only enough LRVs for three lines (Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton). No more. So the other lines are still "deferred".

 

[kEiThZ]

Pantalone actually saw a spike in the poll the Globe & Mail did.

Enough to make him a mere speed bump to get run over by Ford and Smitherman. I would hardly count a few percentage points as a "spike". The reality is that the only politicians capable of carrying the TC banner are Miller and Giambrone.

 

[rbt]

The crush capacity of a CLRV has previously been reported as 132. This vehicle will be more than twice as long than a CLRV. 280 under crush conditions doesn't seem completely out of line.

280 per car would give these things nearly the same capacity as the new Toronto Rocket doesn't it?

280 * 5 (5 car consist makes for about 500 foot long train) = 1400 crush

Toronto Rocket crush numbers are expected to be around 1350 per train right with a normal rush-hour loading factor around 1100 per train?

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Must be why Pantalone is doing so well in the polls....

Doesn't really matter anyhow.

As long as the province sticks to its guns.

 

[nfitz]

If I understand this correctly, that's only enough LRVs for three lines (Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton).

What do you mean? Bombardier has reported that Metrolinx just ordered 182 cars. The Metrolinx presentation last month was quite clear:

Eglinton - 76 cars
Finch - 23 cars
SRT - 48 cars
Sheppard - 35 cars
Total - 182 cars

If it was only for the 3 lines, they would have only have ordered 134 cars.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

At this point I'm thinking about changing my name to "John Undecided", entering the race, and kicking ass.

Go for it!

 

[kEiThZ]

What do you mean? Bombardier has reported that Metrolinx just ordered 182 cars. The Metrolinx presentation last month was quite clear:

Eglinton - 76 cars
Finch - 23 cars
SRT - 48 cars
Sheppard - 35 cars
Total - 182 cars

If it was only for the 3 lines, they would have only have ordered 134 cars.

My mistake. Forgot the SRT. Anyway, I don't think the contract as written can't be amended to knock off 48 cars. And I doubt Bombardier would put up much of a fight, knowing that Metrolinx will be a good source of business for a long time to come.

Anyway, I thought you were referring to the other lines (Jane, DM, WW, MM).

Was there any doubt that these lines would go ahead? I mean the front-runner has three in his plan. Only the SRT would be contentious.

 

[kEiThZ]

Doesn't really matter anyhow.

As long as the province sticks to its guns.

Would this be the same province that already "deferred" four lines and truncated another three?

And the province certainly didn't stick to its guns in Ottawa.

I highly doubt they'll put up a fight for a project that might cost about the same (SRT) for a subway or an LRT. And it'll really be bad form if the McGuinty government starts arguing with one of their former ministers. If Smitherman wins, I am willing to bet we'll see some notable changes.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

They didn't in Ottawa.

And I highly doubt they'll put up a fight for a project that might cost about the same (SRT) for a subway or an LRT. And it'll really be bad form if the McGuinty government starts arguing with one of their former ministers. If Smitherman wins, I am willing to bet we'll see some notable changes.

Well, I still wouldn't hold my breath.

As long as construction starts on Eglinton next year, it'll pretty much remain an LRT line, and rightly so.

The DRL won't come here any faster, and Sheppard West, BD east or west exentions? Haha don't make me laugh.

 

[nfitz]

Anyway, I don't think the contract as written can't be amended to knock off 48 cars.

I'd think if there were a lot of special conditions in the contract to cancel it, then Bombardier would have had to have revealed that, or else they would be risking penalties for misinforming shareholders.

And I doubt Bombardier would put up much of a fight, knowing that Metrolinx will be a good source of business for a long time to come.

What? This is the same Bombardier that is currently suing the STM in Montlreal (the Montreal Metro) over plans to cancel and retender their $1.2 billion order for 340 subway cars! Bombardier would quite definitely put up a fight ... unless perhaps it was part of a deal to replace by an equivalent $ order (for subway cars or ALRT cars) - which would then not be tendered, and would risk the kind of lawsuits we've seen in Montreal recently from other vendors when large contracts haven't been tendered.

Was there any doubt that these lines would go ahead? I mean the front-runner has three in his plan. Only the SRT would be contentious.

Last time I checked, the frontrunner was Ford; and he hasn't got any of these in his plan!

 

[Rainforest]

^ BD East, aka subway to STC, might happen. Smitherman's plan even has places to use some of LRV's that will not be needed for SLRT: extension of Finch West to Woodbine, and extension of Eglinton from Jane to Royal York.