[Electrify]

For SELRT, they modeled two configurations: 400m-average stop spacing, or 800m-average with a parallel bus service. They estimated the speed of LRT to be 22-23 kph in the first case, or 26-27 kph in the second case. And then they chose the first option; that could be right or wrong but at least the rationales are known.

However for the outer portions of Eglinton, they did not bother to consider alternatives; even though Eglinton has the 3-rd option (trenching) not available on Sheppard, and the cost of modeling is peanuts compared to the construction cost.

I did a post earlier on questioning the TTC's conclusions of only achieving 27km/h at 800m stop spacing. Most rapid transit lines when faced with this kind of stop spacing achieve speeds of about 35km/h.

Here is the post (#4832)

I calculated his average trip speed at 14.3km/h. The article says this is 8 minutes faster for the trip, so before before it was 10.9km/h average. Either way, St. Clair wasn't "Transit City 101" as Ford claims it to be. At most, the shelters could be considered "Transit City beta," but that's it.

Someone posted this link in another thread (http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/completion/ea_report_master_part1.pdf), and the last page gives some insight to the stop spacing and proposed speed. Currently the Sheppard bus moves at 17km/h, Sheppard East at 400m stops would move at 22.5km/h (32% speed increase), and at 800m would be 26.5km/h (55% speed increase). To put this into perspective, according to these numbers currently to get from Morningside to Don Mills takes 43 minutes, 400m LRT would take 33 minutes, and 800m would take 28 minutes. While the time savings of 5 minutes might seem insignificant, keep in mind that the trip to Don Mills is only one leg of the trip for most people, and they would need to also transfer to the subway at Don Mills and again at Yonge.

I also question the validity of the average speed numbers of the larger stop spacing. On the Bloor-Danforth line between Keele and Bathurst, I calculated the average stop spacing is almost 700m (675m to be exact) and the average speed to be at 30km/h. The average speed of the Montreal Metro (according to Wikipedia) is 40km/h, and the average stop spacing there is about 900m (922m to be exact). The TTC's model claimed to use signal priority, so theoretically the average speed at stops every 800m should be closer to 35km/h, not 26.5km/h.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make with this is that St. Clair is not LRT, but neither is Sheppard East.

 

[Asterix]

I did a post earlier on questioning the TTC's conclusions of only achieving 27km/h at 800m stop spacing. Most rapid transit lines when faced with this kind of stop spacing achieve speeds of about 35km/h.

One way to look at this is to try some basic math.

For starters, let's assume 800m stop spacing, maximum speed is 60 km/h (16.7 m/s) and acceleration/deceleration of 2 m/s^2 (rounding off to taking 8 seconds to get up to speed and then come to a full stop). We'll also assume initially that there are no cross streets to contend with and no between stops red lights.

So, to go from a standing start at one stop, we take 8 seconds to get up to full speed, traveling 64 m in that time. We then travel 672m in 40 seconds at 60 km/h before taking 8 seconds to come to a full stop. Given the larger stop spacing, there will probably be a fair amount of on-off traffic at each stop. Let's give that 20 seconds.

So now, to cover one full cycle of 800m plus servicing one stop, we've taken 8 + 40 + 8 + 20 = 76 seconds and so our average speed is 10.5 m/s or almost 38 km/h.

However, that would be a rather idealized case. If acceleration/deceleration is less than 2 m/s^2 or maximum speed is less than 60 km/h or we are unable to run at that maximum speed for most of the distance between stops or it takes longer than 20 seconds to service a stop or we hit a single red light in that half mile stretch (biggest killer), then we're going to average slower.

To average 35 km/h for the length of the route, hitting many stops, we'd have to be very lucky in avoiding any of those previously listed factors, so it's not too hard to see how average running speed over the length of the route can drop below 30 km/h. Just a few red lights will probably do that.

 

[Electrify]

One way to look at this is to try some basic math.

For starters, let's assume 800m stop spacing, maximum speed is 60 km/h (16.7 m/s) and acceleration/deceleration of 2 m/s^2 (rounding off to taking 8 seconds to get up to speed and then come to a full stop). We'll also assume initially that there are no cross streets to contend with and no between stops red lights.

So, to go from a standing start at one stop, we take 8 seconds to get up to full speed, traveling 64 m in that time. We then travel 672m in 40 seconds at 60 km/h before taking 8 seconds to come to a full stop. Given the larger stop spacing, there will probably be a fair amount of on-off traffic at each stop. Let's give that 20 seconds.

So now, to cover one full cycle of 800m plus servicing one stop, we've taken 8 + 40 + 8 + 20 = 76 seconds and so our average speed is 10.5 m/s or almost 38 km/h.

However, that would be a rather idealized case. If acceleration/deceleration is less than 2 m/s^2 or maximum speed is less than 60 km/h or we are unable to run at that maximum speed for most of the distance between stops or it takes longer than 20 seconds to service a stop or we hit a single red light in that half mile stretch (biggest killer), then we're going to average slower.

To average 35 km/h for the length of the route, hitting many stops, we'd have to be very lucky in avoiding any of those previously listed factors, so it's not too hard to see how average running speed over the length of the route can drop below 30 km/h. Just a few red lights will probably do that.

So if the line had full signal priority and/or protected crossings, like a proper LRT, then it could achieve speeds in the mid to high 30s. Let's not forget the benefits here as well: 35km/h is over double the current average speed, let alone 38km/h. This could cut one's trip from Morningside to Don Mills to as little as 20 minutes.

Also interesting: I just did a Google Map between Morningside and Sheppard and Don Mills station. As of now (3PM on Monday), the trip time is estimated at 35 minutes, therefore as-is the SELRT would cost a billion dollars and save a total of 2 minutes! Also interesting that set to 8AM, it claims a trip time of 39 minutes for the 12.2km trip: an average trip speed of 18.8km/h.

Something is not making sense here...

EDIT: Going from Meadowvale Rd to Don Mills station comes in at 17.88km/h, which is closer to 17km/h but still an off estimate on the TTC's part.

 

[Tewder]

It has funding invested and promised, it has many, many hours of detailed planning -- and now Ford is trying to break the first inertia-breaker in decades.

You'd be correct if you ignore the facts that Sheppard and Eglinton and Finch West had funding in place as well as detailed plans.

I don't disagree, but in the spirit of looking forward rather than backward we might optimistically hope for two things:

1. Moneys earmarked for transit development will still get directed to transit development once a plan is finalized, and even moreso given:

2. The prevailing political climate may work more in Lord Ford's favour than it ever really did in Miller's, in terms of transit funding. Miller had few allies. Whether it's McGuinty trying to hang on to power or Hudak trying to gain it the province may be inclined to hitch its fortunes to Ford's populism, working with him far more than they did with Miller, which in the end may result in even greater funding for transit than what TC achieved... and who knows how this might also play out at the federal level?

... and I put all of this forth while completely acknowledging the possibility that Ford may yet completely turn his back on all commitments to transit in his quest for budgetary restraint. Who knows yet, it is a little too soon to tell.

 

[Asterix]

2. The prevailing political climate may work more in Lord Ford's favour than it ever really did in Miller's, in terms of transit funding. Miller had few allies. Whether it's McGuinty trying to hang on to power or Hudak trying to gain it the province may be inclined to hitch its fortunes to Ford's populism, working with him far more than they did with Miller, which in the end may result in even greater funding for transit than what TC achieved... and who knows how this might also play out at the federal level?

So you are suggesting that a new Conservative premier who presumably rides in to power on a platform of cutting taxes and spending in face of a mammoth deficit will be likely to fork over more money for transit in Toronto? And that a Federal government (of any stripe) which has a long history of essentially ignoring Toronto will also now be interested in dropping some big bills on the city?

 

[W. K. Lis]

A must-read for those willing to sacrifice city-wide bus riders to subway-only obsession.
Transit Crunch on Finch W: http://t.co/whRdxLA

-discusses Hydro ROW, lane loss, etc.

http://torontoist.com/2011/01/the_pinch_on_finch_west.php

snip:

Councillor James Pasternak (Ward 10, York Centre), whose ward includes a portion of the troublesome stretch of Finch, spoke with us following a meet-and-greet he hosted for constituents recently. Pasternak believes that "Finch West is not on the radar screen" at City Hall, but said little to indicate that he himself considers improving the route a priority.
He spoke at length about his opposition to an LRT on Finch, saying repeatedly that the plan would "remove [traffic] lanes from system roadways." Pasternak seemed genuinely surprised when we insisted that the environmental assesment for the Finch LRT [PDF] contains no lane reductions, as the roadway would be widened to accommodate the rail line while preserving the existing number of traffic lanes.

>>

Never mind home-owners, how in-depth would the Transit City marketing have had to be in order to reach bus riders like those on Finch West, so they would know what was offered? Were TC flyers distributed on hooks in TTC vehicles?

ed d.

With councilors, like Mr. James Pasternak , who don't even READ the environmental assessments for their ward, much less the city, I now understand why they follow the surface rail phobia and automobile-addicted leader and not think on their own.

Finch West will continue to have 2 traffic lanes in each direction, except near the 400 where it will be 3 (three) lanes. They plan to add the light rail right-of-way and bicycle lanes by widening the roadway, since they have the available space.

 

[nfitz]

Also interesting: I just did a Google Map between Morningside and Sheppard and Don Mills station. As of now (3PM on Monday), the trip time is estimated at 35 minutes, therefore as-is the SELRT would cost a billion dollars and save a total of 2 minutes! Also interesting that set to 8AM, it claims a trip time of 39 minutes for the 12.2km trip: an average trip speed of 18.8km/h.

Something is not making sense here...

There's two issues wrong here.

1 - Afternoon peak is the worst time. Google Maps shows 43 minutes from Don Mills station to Morningside right now (at 6 pm). 16.9 km/hr. Also this assumes that it actually runs on-time.

2 - You seem to be using 22 km/hr for the average LRT speed. That's the low-end. The studies indicated the speed would be 22 km/hr to 25 km/hr. Also after the study was completed, they decided to construct the section from Don Mills Road to Consumers Road in a grade-separated tunnel; this section will average an even higher speed.

Still I'd be quite happy to see many of the mid-block stops disappear ... perhaps from 28 stops to about 17.

No, you wouldn't save much time at off-peak - it's peak that is the issue. Also it's important to note that they are designing for 2031. Road congestion is predicted to increase significantly over the next 20 years. Remember Transit City was driven by the examination of predicted 2030s traffic congestion and was an attempt to mitigate against it.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Still I'd be quite happy to see many of the mid-block stops disappear ... perhaps from 28 stops to about 17

Which mid block stops would you immediately remove?

 

[Dan416]

As lovely and fast as LRT can be when built right (which Transit City is not) there are some routes it's good for (Finch West + East in my opinion) and routes it doesn't make sense on (Sheppard East where we already have a subway). If you really want that SRT extension, then I would suggest replacing the portion to STC with subway, and then have the transfer at STC to the SRT and have STC as the first stop, McCowan as the second stop, and then follow the proposed route as planned with LRT.

Now some of you may say we don't have money to do all these things. That may be true. I'm just saying that's the kind of thing I'd like to see.

Eglinton --> proceed as is for the most part with a few tweaks here and there (e.g. fix the Airport routing, less stops, more tunneling, trenching, Richview corridor operation)
Finch West --> proceed as is, do Finch East as well in lieu of the SELRT
Sheppard East --> replace with subway extension east to STC, west to Downsview
DRL --> subway from Union to Pape (phase I), up to Don Mills/Eglinton or Sheppard (phase II), west to Dundas West (phase III)
SRT --> replace with subway to STC

I think the problem is that this city doesn't think big enough, and it's all about cuts, cuts, cuts. Why build half an LRT on Finch when you should do a whole line?

 

[reaperexpress]

Which mid block stops would you immediately remove?

Here's my personal list:
- Palmdale (between Pharmacy and Warden)
- Brownspring (between Brimley and McCowan)
- 4725 Sheppard (between McCowan and Shorting/Havenview)
- Massie (between Shorting/Havenview and Markham Rd.)
- Howell (between Washburn and Neilson)
- Murison (between Neilson and Brenyon Way)

 

[nfitz]

Which mid block stops would you immediately remove?

The ones at the non-major intersections, generally. A rough-cut would be cutting 9 stations - Palmdale, Bay Mills, Allanford Road, Brownspring Road, White Haven, Massie St., Burrows Hall, Murison Blvd, and Idagrove Gate. I was pondering two more as well - Washburn Way and Brenyon Way - but that might be over over-kill.

- 4725 Sheppard (between McCowan and Shorting/Havenview)

That's the one they renamed White Haven, isn't it?

- Howell (between Washburn and Neilson)

I think that's been renamed Burrows Hall.

 

[ssiguy2]

I could actually see Ford being a big supporter of a DRL but not to Union. Ford loves to hate the streetcars and although he won't be ripping up any track for the sake of it he would like to get rid of as many routes as possible. This is where a QUEEN ST. DRL comes in. A lot of Torontonians would prefer that alignment {including myself} anyway and it would get rid of one of the busiest and most congested routes. I can definately see a Pape/Queen/Dundas West line on his radar. If it was to go to Union it would not get rid of a single streetcar route which he would love to do.
Union DRL?............not while Ford's mayor but I can definately see hime being a big Queen Street backer.
As for TC............it had too many flaws that Miller refused to even acknowledge. He was just as pig headed about TC as Ford is. It had far too many stops, made left hand turns on busy routes a near impossibility which slowed both cars and the trains, and was a complete dijointed mess. Honestly, what moron would design a system where you take a train on Eglinton and then have to transfer onto another train to go in the same direction? Also where was the streetcar connection to STC so you could actually go from Don Mills to STC without a transfer.
TC didn't work because it didn't know what it was. You can't have a "rapid transit" system which Miller and the TTC kept insisting it was when it stops every other block and for all lights and left hand turns. I have asked before if any TC backer could give me just one example on the whole planet that has this as it's rapid transit and never got a reponse.
The sad thing is that TC could have worked but not the way it was designed and Miller refused any basic changes in the system. He wanted dependable local service for rapid transit which is impossible as the two are completely different.
If they would have stops at subway spacing of about every 1 to 1.5 km depending on the need and tunnels/trench under any light that it doesn't stop at it would have been a real success. It would also have muted crisism from people like Ford as with the trench it would allow current left hand turns and could have be designed with UTurn routes which would placate any small business who fear getting to their business will be a near impossibility if you had to cross the street to nget there.
Stops at light only and non-stop thru ROW and cross street trenches would have improved speed, reliability, would be able to increase frequency due to fewer stops for stations and lights, been less disruptive to traffic flow and be more business friendly. The costs wouldn't even have been much more as there would be street under trenches but at the same time fewer stations to build. They could have, with no money, also made the lines continuous as opposed to an endless series of transfers.
It could have worked very well but it was ill conceived and tried to be superior transit which it wasn't due to it;s desire to serve everyone a bit better no one got served well. Miller also presented a flawed plan we he presented it as a whole flury of lines as opposed to doing a few first but doing them right the first time. Now, after 5 years, endless studies, and wasted time Toronto is no better off than it was and that is Millers fault not Fords.

 

[jje1000]

I think you're confusing an anti-surface transit mayor with an anti-public transit mayor. Personal transport tops Ford's list- that's what his past indicates. Ford has already said that the city won't be taking on any loans to build any subway lines, and I doubt that a PPP would cover all the costs. Considering that extending Sheppard and starting the Eglinton Stubway will consume all of the money previously allocated to Transit City, a DRL is far, far off. Really, if Ford was that dedicated to improving underground transit throughout the city, he would have drafted a new Network 2011 plan, instead of his half-hearted attempt at appeasing transit users.

The rest of your paragraph is just rambling.

 

[reaperexpress]

That's the one they renamed White Haven, isn't it?

I think that's been renamed Burrows Hall.

Could be. My source for the stops was a fairly old presentation (back when the line went all the way to Meadowvale).

 

[Tewder]

I think you're confusing an anti-surface transit mayor with an anti-public transit mayor. Personal transport tops Ford's list- that's what his past indicates. Ford has already said that the city won't be taking on any loans to build any subway lines, and I doubt that a PPP would cover all the costs. Considering that extending Sheppard and starting the Eglinton Stubway will consume all of the money previously allocated to Transit City, a DRL is far, far off.

The DRL was 'far, far off' under a supposedly transit-friendly mayor too.

The rest of your paragraph is just rambling.

That's not really the way we address each other's contributions around here. ssiguy2 makes some valid points.