[Asterix]

ssiguy2 makes some valid points.

I'm more inclined to agree with jje1000.

Aside from the DRL fantasy (Ford has made no mention anywhere of that being on his radar, so the claim he'd be a 'big supporter' is really just misguided wishful thinking), there are a whole host of other disjointed ramblings.

He claims TC "made left hand turns on busy routes a near impossibility" while also it "stops every other block and for all lights and left hand turns" (which is it, not allowing lefts or having to wait for lefts?). Actually looking at the plans for Eglinton shows that the line does not have to stop for left hand turns. Also, claiming it "stops every other block" is more fantasy as a quick look at the map will show (stop spacings on the surface sections are 670 and 660m respectively - a lot more than 'every other block').

He repeats the claim it isn't rapid transit, despite the fact that operating speeds will be closer to that of the Bloor subway line than the current bus routes.

He further advocates turning the line into a roller coaster, constantly diving into a trench to go under minor cross-roads where it doesn't have a stop before climbing up on the other side. I'm sure the riders would love that up and down experience and the accountants would love the huge costs all these underpasses would cost (he somehow thinks that such diving underpasses would cost something similar to the basic outdoor stops he wants to eliminate).

He later describes a line that will eventually run from Kennedy all the way to the airport as an "endless series of transfers". Maybe "endless" is the term for those who can not count to one as the only transfer I can see he's complaining about is that at Kennedy.

He then displays his ignorance of the bigger picture with the statement "Miller also presented a flawed plan we he presented it as a whole flury of lines as opposed to doing a few first". This shows a lack of understanding of the macro-scale plans coming from the province through The Big Move to drastically improve transit across large swaths of developed Ontario. The TC plan was a part of that bigger plan, coming with set goals to work with neighbouring transit systems in building a better network and having a defined funding plan that could take advantage of using resources for multiple projects instead of repeating the effort singly again and again. (Yes, not all of TBM was funded and what was funded was cut back, but what was left is exactly what ssiguy2 advocates - doing a few lines first, but apparently he is still against what he is for.)

His final line is just the icing on the cake:

"Now, after 5 years, endless studies, and wasted time Toronto is no better off than it was and that is Millers fault not Fords. "

Toronto literally was ready to get shovels in the ground on two lines such that major construction would be well underway this calendar year, with a third line to follow soon thereafter. Instead, once Miller was no longer in the picture, we are back to endless studies and wasted time, leaving Toronto no better off than it was. And he attempts to claim this abortion was Miller's fault and not the person who actually pulled the plug?

So yes, I think that qualifies as ramblings.

 

[M II A II R II K]

A must-read for those willing to sacrifice city-wide bus riders to subway-only obsession.
Transit Crunch on Finch W: http://t.co/whRdxLA

-discusses Hydro ROW, lane loss, etc.

http://torontoist.com/2011/01/the_pinch_on_finch_west.php

I think that an alternative solution could be to extend Sheppard west and have those Finch travelers use the Spadina extension and a Sheppard West subway for rapid transit, particularly if most of them are using the Finch West bus to travel off of Finch anyway. Or a hydro rapid transit route of some kind can do the trick.

However if a significant number of the Finch West riders are traveling just along Finch and use it for short range rapid transit where development along the route would be key as well then an underground LRT along Finch can work, with side and trench sections.

 

[Electrify]

There's two issues wrong here.

1 - Afternoon peak is the worst time. Google Maps shows 43 minutes from Don Mills station to Morningside right now (at 6 pm). 16.9 km/hr. Also this assumes that it actually runs on-time.

2 - You seem to be using 22 km/hr for the average LRT speed. That's the low-end. The studies indicated the speed would be 22 km/hr to 25 km/hr. Also after the study was completed, they decided to construct the section from Don Mills Road to Consumers Road in a grade-separated tunnel; this section will average an even higher speed.

Still I'd be quite happy to see many of the mid-block stops disappear ... perhaps from 28 stops to about 17.

No, you wouldn't save much time at off-peak - it's peak that is the issue. Also it's important to note that they are designing for 2031. Road congestion is predicted to increase significantly over the next 20 years. Remember Transit City was driven by the examination of predicted 2030s traffic congestion and was an attempt to mitigate against it.

Okay, I'm going to redo the numbers - under the assumption that the line operates from Don Mills to Meadowvale - during afternoon peak. All speeds are average:

85 Sheppard departing at 5PM: 50 minutes (17.6km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 400m stops and limited priority: 38 minutes (23km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 800m stops and limited priority: 33 minutes (27km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 800m stops and full priority: 25 minutes (35km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 1100m stops and full priority: 23 minutes (38km/h: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/tag/stop+spacing/)

Driving along Sheppard in current traffic conditions (according to Bing Maps, as of 4:30 February 1): 22 minutes (40km/h)
Driving along the 401 in current traffic conditions (according to Bing Maps, as of 4:30 February 1): 18 minutes (61km/h)

1100m is based off of my perferred stop spacing with more frequent bus service beyond Agincourt. This includes:
Don Mills
Consumers
Victoria Park
Warden
Birchmount
Kennedy
Agincourt
Brimley
McCowan
Markham
Washburn (transfer with SRT)
Neilson
Morningside
Meadowvale

If we are going to be spending what we are, we should try and make it as competitive with driving as possible.

 

[pman]

yes, but

The DRL was 'far, far off' under a supposedly transit-friendly mayor too.

True, but wasn't a lot of the rationale for Transit City to improve service in "priority neighbourhoods"? As I recall, DRL wasn't on the last administration's agenda because it wasn't going to serve the right people, even though it was the line that probably made the most sense.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The DRL hasn't been on anybody's agenda since the ridership drop in the mid-90s. The only way to get it back on the agenda is for council to push for it as a condition of further extensions to the Yonge line.

 

[reaperexpress]

1100m is based off of my perferred stop spacing with more frequent bus service beyond Agincourt. This includes:
Don Mills
Consumers
Victoria Park
Warden
Birchmount
Kennedy
Agincourt
Brimley
McCowan
Neilson
Morningside
Meadowvale

No stops between McCowan and Neilson (3.5km)? What about Markham Road and the SRT interchange?

 

[GraphicMatt]

I propose a light rail vehicle that never stops. Passengers will instead attach themselves to the moving vehicle with magnets.

 

[Voltz]

Okay, I'm going to redo the numbers - under the assumption that the line operates from Don Mills to Meadowvale - during afternoon peak. All speeds are average:

85 Sheppard departing at 5PM: 50 minutes (17.6km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 400m stops and limited priority: 38 minutes (23km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 800m stops and limited priority: 33 minutes (27km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 800m stops and full priority: 25 minutes (35km/h)
Sheppard East LRT with 1100m stops and full priority: 18 minutes (48km/h: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/tag/stop+spacing/)

Driving along Sheppard in current traffic conditions (according to Bing Maps, as of 4:30 February 1): 22 minutes (40km/h)
Driving along the 401 in current traffic conditions (according to Bing Maps, as of 4:30 February 1): 18 minutes (61km/h)

1100m is based off of my perferred stop spacing with more frequent bus service beyond Agincourt. This includes:
Don Mills
Consumers
Victoria Park
Warden
Birchmount
Kennedy
Agincourt
Brimley
McCowan
Neilson
Morningside
Meadowvale

If we are going to be spending what we are, we should try and make it as competitive with driving as possible.

How is it competitive with driving if many people can't actually get to the stops because they are absurdly far apart? The point of transit is for people to ride it, not have the LRT's try and race cars down the street.

 

[lafard]

How is it competitive with driving if many people can't actually get to the stops because they are absurdly far apart? The point of transit is for people to ride it

Something that seems to escape subway fans.

The high average speed is great if both origin and destination lie close to a stop. Otherwise, not so much.

I'm sure there is an optimal solution to this, probably easy to calculate (off the top of my mind I can dash off a simple solution in a few minutes). It's just a bit counter-intuitive because biggest net benefit does not correlate with highest running speed.

This is also true of the larger LRT vs Subway debate. I imagine there are points where the closely-spaced LRT is actually more beneficial overall than an exactly equal length of subway with distantly spaced stops.

 

[Electrify]

No stops between McCowan and Neilson (3.5km)? What about Markham Road and the SRT interchange?

Forgot to add them when making the list. When drawing up the map, I included those stops so average stop spacing remains the same.

How is it competitive with driving if many people can't actually get to the stops because they are absurdly far apart? The point of transit is for people to ride it, not have the LRT's try and race cars down the street.

It is called walking, and considering the state of our health on a whole, it is something we should encourage more of. Cycling is also a good alternative. The fact of life in suburbia is that those who take transit are more likely walk further to get to it. And more people are likely to take it if it is fast - especially compared to driving. Tonight I just missed my connection to the local bus which runs through my neighbourhood, so I walked 20 minutes instead. I had a mishap with my bike so I need to get it repaired, but when I bike to the bus stop it takes less than 10 minutes.

There would be a bus route which would run from Agincourt GO where the stop spacing begins to increase. Between Don Mills and Agincourt the stop spacing would be closer to 800m, which at 400m midpoint, is not an unrealistic walk by any stretch. Plus there would still be bus service as well.

When people say they don't take transit, the #1 reason is speed. It may not be as much of a concern in the inner-city, but when one faces longer distances in travel it counts. Let's not forget that the project was promoted as rapid transit. If the main purpose of this project was only to increase capacity along a single corridor, then articulated buses would do the trick at a far more appropriate cost.

 

[ssiguy2]

I didn't say do them first.............I said do it RIGHT the first time. Instead of spending money all over the place resulting in only "improved" transit. put off the line for a while and use those funds to make sure the lines being built are rapid and mass the first time.
Every 300 metres is every 2 to 3 blocks which is ridiculous. Anyone who doesn't want to walk a little can take the bus to the station that's what local transit is for. Toronto already has excellent local service it's the mass and rapid part it is lacking.
Fewer stops for lights not only improves reliability but also is one less place an accident can stop the whole system. A transit system is only as good as it's weakest points.
As for the transfers, of course taking transit requires transfers I never said it didn't. That said, people HATE transfers. Just look at Kennedy.......people bitch non-stop because they have to get off at the subway, cross the street and take a train which has fast subway speed. A "crosstown" route doesn't stops at only 2/3rds of the route. If they can't build it at the same time then fine but when it is build is be considered part of an extension not a new line. Making people transfer to go in the same direction, using the same technology costing billions is absurd. Tell ya what. when the Spadina extension is completed why don't you make everyone got off at Downsview, leave the station and then tell them to wait 2 or 3 minutes so they can go back into the station and take the same train up to YorkU? Seems ridiculous but that is EXACTLY the same thing. If the ridership is much lower they can always have half the trains short turn at Kennedy.
Let's take a stroll using TC from STC to YorkU shall we? Get on the SRT to Sheppard TRANSFER to Sheppard LRT east to Don Mills and then TRANSFER to the subway to Yonge then TRANSFER to a northbound Yonge line to Finch then TRANSFER onto a bus west to Spadina and TRANSFER on the subway up to YorkU. Miller actually thought that people would embrace a system like this? These are not two outposts of the city but 2 major destination and transfer points.
One has to live within budgets which requires priorities. I think a DRL or Eglinton should be the first but I can appreciate Ford wanting to fix up the mess of Sheppard.
I still stand by my statement of Ford with the DRL. Yes I think Sheppard and Eglinton will be done first but if offered funds I could see him being a big supporter of a DRL if it goes under Queen so he can get rid of the downtown streetcars.
TC was a good idea that was poorly executed. Either Torontonians want rapid transit or not but trying to be rapid transit while serving local transit is impossible.
One thing that also didn't help was when Miller lied about the cost. When a price goes up by 50% in just 18 months that's not called a miscalculation but lying.

If someone wants to debate great but don't just say someone is rambling when they bring up valid points whether you agree with them or not.
BTW.................. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about providing the name of any other city on the planet that uses this model as it's rapid/mass transit system.

 

[Voltz]

Forgot to add them when making the list. When drawing up the map, I included those stops so average stop spacing remains the same.



It is called walking, and considering the state of our health on a whole, it is something we should encourage more of. Cycling is also a good alternative. The fact of life in suburbia is that those who take transit are more likely walk further to get to it. And more people are likely to take it if it is fast - especially compared to driving. Tonight I just missed my connection to the local bus which runs through my neighbourhood, so I walked 20 minutes instead. I had a mishap with my bike so I need to get it repaired, but when I bike to the bus stop it takes less than 10 minutes.

There would be a bus route which would run from Agincourt GO where the stop spacing begins to increase. Between Don Mills and Agincourt the stop spacing would be closer to 800m, which at 400m midpoint, is not an unrealistic walk by any stretch. Plus there would still be bus service as well.

The few minutes that would be saved are more than offset for most by having to walk longer to the stops, and it would be even worse for those who have to transfer from a local parallel bus,

Many people have to walk to a street and then along it to get to a stop, 400m is definitely not the maximum distance that people would have to walk and they are not all as energetic as you seem to be.

 

[Rainforest]

Sheppard East LRT with 1100m stops and full priority: 18 minutes (48km/h: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/tag/stop+spacing/)

Note that your 48 km/h forecast for in-median LRT exceeds the actual speed of Sheppard subway (about 35 km/h; note that it is a fully grade-separate line with a 1500 m average stop spacing), and even the speed of Vancouver's SkyTrain (45 km/h). Frankly, such forecast is hard to believe.

In the graph presented in your link, the majority of analyzed bus routes run no faster than 22 mph even if they have only 1 or 2 stops per mile. Regarding several routes that run much faster, do they operate on highways?

I am all for rapid transit, but let's make realistic predictions.

 

[SlickFranky]

Just look at Kennedy.......people bitch non-stop because they have to get off at the subway, cross the street and take a train which has fast subway speed.

That's not how that transfer works.

A "crosstown" route doesn't stops at only 2/3rds of the route. If they can't build it at the same time then fine but when it is build is be considered part of an extension not a new line.

Are you complaining about nomenclature here, or phased construction?

Making people transfer to go in the same direction, using the same technology costing billions is absurd. Tell ya what. when the Spadina extension is completed why don't you make everyone got off at Downsview, leave the station and then tell them to wait 2 or 3 minutes so they can go back into the station and take the same train up to YorkU? Seems ridiculous but that is EXACTLY the same thing. If the ridership is much lower they can always have half the trains short turn at Kennedy.

If you short-turn half the trains, then you're imposing that same transfer on half the riders. Anyway, the two are completely different. I won't bother going into details, but for starters that subway extension draws people away from Yonge, while a Sheppard extension funnels more people toward Yonge.

Let's take a stroll using TC from STC to YorkU shall we? Get on the SRT to Sheppard TRANSFER to Sheppard LRT east to Don Mills and then TRANSFER to the subway to Yonge then TRANSFER to a northbound Yonge line to Finch then TRANSFER onto a bus west to Spadina and TRANSFER on the subway up to YorkU. Miller actually thought that people would embrace a system like this? These are not two outposts of the city but 2 major destination and transfer points.

Even pretending for a second that the bulk of STC riders are headed to York U (of all places), a subway from Don Mills to STC hardly solves that. They're still riding up to Finch to catch a 60, or taking an 84 to Downsview (or will it be Sheppard W then?) and then up the Spadina. Either way, 2 transfers. And if that's what's important to you we don't need Sheppard at all...just take the SRT to the BD, to St George up to York. It hardly matters in the real world anyway, since riders don't actually originate at STC and aren't generally bound for York in the first place.

One has to live within budgets which requires priorities. I think a DRL or Eglinton should be the first but I can appreciate Ford wanting to fix up the mess of Sheppard.
I still stand by my statement of Ford with the DRL. Yes I think Sheppard and Eglinton will be done first but if offered funds I could see him being a big supporter of a DRL if it goes under Queen so he can get rid of the downtown streetcars.

You're projecting. Ford has been in politics in Toronto for a while now and he's never mentioned this, or given any indication that he'd support that sort of thing. He's always been very clear on his views of government spending, especially downtown.

BTW.................. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about providing the name of any other city on the planet that uses this model as it's rapid/mass transit system.

TC is a supplement to our subway system, an incremental upgrade to lower density areas. MANY cities do this. Any specific city I mention will be either too big, too small, too foreign, too elitist, too hot, too Austrian....it doesn't mater. Just like when certain people extol monorail proliferation and we all explain why the shit they're doing in India or South America doesn't really apply.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The DRL hasn't been on anybody's agenda since the ridership drop in the mid-90s. The only way to get it back on the agenda is for council to push for it as a condition of further extensions to the Yonge line.

Actually, there is a Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study going on at the TTC. It is defined as "A strategic planning overview of the need for improved transit service/accessibility into the downtown core." The study will include public consultation and participation from interested stakeholders.

Updates to the study should appear at the TTC's website on the Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study at this link.