[EnviroTO]

Anything is possible, but I don't think that will because a) The optics of converting a subway to an LRT look bad no matter how justified it is and b) accessibility is the big selling point for the low-floor vehicles.

Really going with high-floor might make sense if Eglinton underground is to be upgraded to subway some day in the future but the issue is that 1100mm is a higher than normal floor height for LRT. Ramps at platforms mean the high-floor LRT need not be inaccessible. The most commonly used platform heights for all rail equipment types are 200mm (steps), 380mm (LRT low, North American commuter low), 550mm (EU rail low), 760mm (EU rail high), 900mm (LRT/UK high), 1100mm (Metro/Russia high), and 1220mm (North American high) with LRT staying below 1m. If there is no possibility for an 1100mm floor height LRT maybe a 900mm height would make sense. During an LRT to metro conversion a height change of 20cm isn't nearly the effort of a height change of 75cm.

 

[EnviroTO]

You can bet that if Bombardier decides to wave a cancellation fee they will want something in return. I think they will demand SkyTrain as it would be a large transit operator expanding the system to give it more of a precense in NA.

Why would Bombardier care what technology gets used? Bombardier makes LRT, ART, and subway. If Ford wants subways Bombardier makes them. I see little reason for the TTC to pay more to get ART versus LRT, so unless the province one again makes the TTC choose ART it will be either subway or LRT.

 

[lafard]

Unless, of course, BBD has already spent money on engineering and tooling to build LRT vehicles for Toronto.... it was a huge order and they would have moved almost immediately on engineering and preliminary tooling, perhaps some early prototyping has already occured. Certainly arranging space for the line would have been concern #1.

If we decide we want subways, they don't need any of it. We won't even need said subway cars for almost a decade, and that alone has an enormous associated cost. Once we get the last of the new subway cars in '13 or '14 they can either mothball the line for five years or retool for another order and tool back for Toronto later. Neither is a cheap option.

The only possible benefit of this conversion is we could save a bit of money by piggybacking the order for the next set (T1 replacement) subway cars on them.

BBD has spent a fair bit of money on this LRT order already. They won't convert it for free, especially knowing that the "updated" order can just as easily be cancelled on a whim. World class companies don't get that way by being ignorant of prevailing economic and political histories of their biggest customers.

I would suggest that given Toronto's history of cancelling in-progress transit expansions they will charge rather heavily as insurance against it happening again. They will get the order anyways for political reasons, but can basically screw Toronto in the process. And you know what? McGuinty will let them because watching Ford flounder is political gold for him.

 

[MetroMan]

Kouvalis said in a casual conversation with the media that "Transit City is alive and well and it’s going to be buried underground,"

Councillor Doug Ford, also said he would have already returned to his family and campaign strategy company in Windsor except that he is "this close" - holding two fingers barely apart - to reaching agreement with the province on a transit expansion plan to replace Transit City.

source

I'm guessing we're getting an underground Eglinton LRT + underground Sheppard LRT. There's no way the Province could afford to convert Transit City to subways.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Elevated where though, above Eglinton, or how far away from Eglinton can it get.

 

[Filip]

Kouvalis said in a casual conversation with the media that "Transit City is alive and well and it’s going to be buried underground,"

Councillor Doug Ford, also said he would have already returned to his family and campaign strategy company in Windsor except that he is "this close" - holding two fingers barely apart - to reaching agreement with the province on a transit expansion plan to replace Transit City.

source

I'm guessing we're getting an underground Eglinton LRT + underground Sheppard LRT. There's no way the Province could afford to convert Transit City to subways.

Why in God's name would we get an underground Sheppard LRT? "Ok guys, here you're riding the subway, underground, and you're going to get off at THIS point, and switch to an underground streetcar going in the same direction..."

I can hear transit agencies around the world snickering.

 

[Ed Drass]

"Transit City is alive and well and it’s going to be buried underground,"

Those of you who oppose Transit City surface routes, do you feel that Ford's approach also effectively bans surface transit improvements? As in, after his team has killed surface LRT, would it later allow BRT lanes or queue-jump lanes or expanded Transit Priority signalling?

And does council need to see a comprehensive plan from Ford before agreeing to cancel surface LRT routes and to support X km of underground routes?

ed d.

 

[ssiguy2]

That's exactly what TC would do at Kennedy. Get off a train so you can get back on a train going the same way as opposed to just keep the train going.

 

[Ed Drass]

I'm not sure anyone in power is suggesting full underground LRT for Sheppard, but who knows? The remaking of our region's transit plan appears to have begun ... underground. Behind closed doors, as usual.

That said, there will always be transfers at the end of subway lines -- the question is whether the transfer is always to mixed-traffic buses from here on in, or to LRT or BRT when numbers justify. And yes, the Kennedy transfer is galling -- but what are the trade-offs elsewhere in the system? Malvern folks forever having to take a bus to the nearest rail stop?

What if subway-only means that riders on Finch West have to switch to bunching buses for 30 years -- that would be a three-decade transfer. Meanwhile Sheppard East can get an overbuilt subway where ridership may not justify cost for decades.

'Let them ride buses... in mixed traffic.'

-ed d.

 

[Dan416]

I think and hope when they say "Transit City" is going to be buried, I think they're referring to the Eglinton LRT only, maybe making more of it underground (I remember in particular a lot of complaints about it being above ground at a certain point in the west end, maybe around Weston?). I do not think they would build a Sheppard East LRT underground. That makes no sense. You may as well just build a few stations of subway and not need any new rolling stock.

 

[M II A II R II K]

What if subway-only means that riders on Finch West have to switch to bunching buses for 30 years -- that would be a three-decade transfer. Meanwhile Sheppard East can get an overbuilt subway where ridership may not justify cost for decades.

Who's to say how it would be improved with the University Line intersecting Finch for the first time and combine that with a Sheppard West subway. There would still be a proper rapid transit route going in that general direction, and could siphon off many of the longer commuters who use that route, leaving mainly the short trips on Finch West to be serviced by those busses. Particularly if you include people transferring off of that bus to go south to the Sheppard Subway to continue their ride from there.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In New York City, they are spending billions of dollars on a heavy rail subway under 2nd Avenue, after a delay of, not years, but decades.

Following are photos of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan:

There are those who want to build a heavy rail subway and not a light rail rapid transit line along Sheppard Avenue West.

Following are photos of Sheppard Avenue East in Scarborough:

Where's the justification? I guess that 2nd Avenue in NYC and Sheppard Avenue East in Scarborough are so similar, movie productions could substitute Sheppard Avenue East for 2nd Avenue for movie shoots. Not!

A light rail rapid transit line is more justified.

 

[Dan416]

Try not using pictures of Sheppard from the 60s and maybe you'll have a bit more credibility. And if you identify where the pictures are taken we'll be able to gauge if they're even on the route that the Sheppard Subway would be taking from Don Mills to STC. Oh, and let's also not forget that Sheppard already has a subway running underneath it

But if we want to be realistic, here's Sheppard & Consumers:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...V0kLfuiR2dPJ-6w85qCBrg&cbp=12,203.41,,0,-0.25

Sheppard & Victoria Park:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...2&spn=0.006755,0.049267&z=15&lci=transit_comp

Sheppard & Warden:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...2&spn=0.006755,0.032916&z=15&lci=transit_comp

Sheppard & Birchmount:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...=LjkX5DrXCIQ-R3i3yyTKiA&cbp=12,30.27,,0,-2.26

Sheppard & Kennedy:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...ETD83dW2Qc8AK_btqFecgg&cbp=12,345.58,,0,-2.53

 

[accura407]

I completely agree! You can't use a picture of a part of sheppard ave on the far east that is pure suburban and say that they will build a subway there! That's how these stupid lies begin...

Why don't you find a picture of yonge st in aurora and say that they are building the yonge extension under yonge...!

Sheppard from Don Mills till Kennedy is full of dense apartment buildings and is a long commercial strip full of businesses and mini office buildings.

After agincourt GO Station, it begins to lower in density and then after McCowan it's like 905 suburbs with zero commercial areas until Markham Rd and Morningside. And even at that, its purely 905 style power centres.

Makes one wonder what the justification was to build a light rail line all the way to Meadowvale when the density east of McCowan is worse than 905 densities.

That is why it is no surprise planners long ago deviated the subway on Sheppard after Kennedy because from there on, there is no potential for density at all.

Then once scarborough Rt is extended to Malvern (a true dense hub ripe for rapid transit) the parts of sheppard east of progress are served by rapid transit nearby

Building any form of rapid transit on Sheppard east of McCowan is just as stupid as putting a subway into Vaughan (maybe worse)

 

[M II A II R II K]

Building any form of rapid transit on Sheppard east of McCowan is just as stupid as putting a subway into Vaughan (maybe worse)

At least that Vaughn subway leads to downtown on the same line and has far apart stations through most of it acting like commuter rail, which is better than a BD extension to replace the SRT since then people would have to sit thru endless stations to even get to the Yonge line.

If funds are scarce or more to the point the willingness to commit funds then maybe do nothing on Sheppard and build more worthwhile lines where it would be assured to be used enough and relieve existing rapid transit lines. Even a 3km line downtown could have a significant impact.

And on a sidenote better to integrate the GO Train into the system. Those on Sheppard can get on at Oriole or Agincourt for a speedy ride downtown without having to bother with the local, and even rapid transit local system as it ideally should be for long distance transit.