[kEiThZ]

Alternatively, they could be cheap idiots and mean bus lanes as in lanes with diamonds painted on them, not ones separated by a concrete edge. Those would be useless when it comes to conversion and dubious in terms of separating buses from car traffic.

Something better than nothing right? Wasn't that the Transit City Fanatic motto? And didn't people say why spend billions on subways to save a few minutes when a few hundred million on LRT would be a good 80% solution? Well the same goes for BRT and LRT.

Even diamond lanes would actually be a pretty decent solution. Especially if they run across the length of the city. This would mean that a Finch bus could reach the Sheppard subway at Vic Park from a starting point of Morningside and Finch in less than 30 minutes. This would make the Sheppard subway as accessible as STC is today from the edges of Scarborough. On the other side, it would make for quicker bus rides to Finch West and Finch station. The LRT vs. BRT difference would be mere minutes given the lengths we are talking about.

 

[kEiThZ]

Actually living on Eglinton which has a bus lane during rush hour, it is rare that cars actually use the bus lane. I would say the same thing for the DON Mills bus lanes and as well as the car pool lanes on the highways. People follow the rules more often then not. Id argue that Id take twice as many cheaply diamond painted lanes (as long as its an actual additional lane - not taking a lane away from the cars since i believe that will infuriate drivers causing them to break the rules) then dedicated BRT lanes.

+1

Honestly. Spending the Transit City funds on diamond lanes and additional buses for every major avenue in Toronto might have acutally accomplished a lot more (albeit at the cost of overloading the subway backbone).

I hope Rob Ford has enough sense to compromise and go for this plan. It's an eminently reasonable compromise. It gets him something on Sheppard. It provides improved service along all of Finch. And does it before the next election. And it puts shovels in the ground on Eglinton and Sheppard before the next mayoral election (which lets him show progress). If he turns this down, there's no hope for him.

 

[sixrings]

ILL live with the plan but I think it would have made more sense to convert the subway and extend it to Vic Park... It would have made the inevitable future extension far cheaper and therefore easier to plan and swallow.

 

[jeffreym]

+1
I hope Rob Ford has enough sense to compromise and go for this plan. It's an eminently reasonable compromise. It gets him something on Sheppard. It provides improved service along all of Finch. And does it before the next election. And it puts shovels in the ground on Eglinton and Sheppard before the next mayoral election (which lets him show progress). If he turns this down, there's no hope for him.

Don't you worry - already rejected. http://t.co/6yCuffUa

 

[jeffreym]

It depends what they mean by BRT. If they mean segregated lanes on the street (LRT minus the rails) then that's one thing. If they mean some paint here and a queue jump lane there...... well, that's something different entirely.

From what I can guess, assuming they're talking about the former, most of the savings are probably going to come from not building the yard and the tunnelled sections. In exchange the city will presumably have to pick up the tab for the vehicles and sooner than later a new garage. So I wonder how much it's actually saving?

 

[ShonTron]

I'd like to see quick in-and-out for upgraded Finch buses at Finch and Finch West Stations, not necessarily tunnel entrances, but something more than being at the mercy of opposing traffic to enter and exit. As far as BRT-lite goes, Brampton did this part right with a separate signalized exit from Bramalea Terminal and a bus only left turn lane from Queen Street; it's 10 times better than entry and exit from Viva's Richmond Hill terminal.

There's a few pinch points where segregated lanes are essential - around the 400 especially. But probably not the entire route, though. If done right, with a proper use of various BRT measures where they are appropriate, it can be done well. At least it will be across the entire corridor, Transfer City is gone.

 

[kEiThZ]

Don't you worry - already rejected. http://t.co/6yCuffUa

I am willing to bet that it will pass with City Council though.

Rob Ford is merely risking his own re-election by opposing this.

 

[Tulse]

I am willing to bet that it will pass with City Council though.

Rob Ford is merely risking his own re-election by opposing this.

Yep, it sure looks like his support on this issue is evaporating on Council. And mayoral opposition isn't enough to block the project.

 

[jeffreym]

Yup – finally!

 

[Paleo]

+1

Honestly. Spending the Transit City funds on diamond lanes and additional buses for every major avenue in Toronto might have acutally accomplished a lot more (albeit at the cost of overloading the subway backbone).

I hope Rob Ford has enough sense to compromise and go for this plan. It's an eminently reasonable compromise. It gets him something on Sheppard. It provides improved service along all of Finch. And does it before the next election. And it puts shovels in the ground on Eglinton and Sheppard before the next mayoral election (which lets him show progress). If he turns this down, there's no hope for him.

You don't compromise with idiots just to help them save face. Good luck with BRT and its requirements for wider right of ways and in the case of Finch, the necessity of underground sections near Yonge unless you want the bus to fight with mixed traffic. If it's just going to be a pair of diamond lanes, why bother?

It depends what they mean by BRT. If they mean segregated lanes on the street (LRT minus the rails) then that's one thing. If they mean some paint here and a queue jump lane there...... well, that's something different entirely.

From what I can guess, assuming they're talking about the former, most of the savings are probably going to come from not building the yard and the tunnelled sections. In exchange the city will presumably have to pick up the tab for the vehicles and sooner than later a new garage. So I wonder how much it's actually saving?

I don't think it's actually saving since new bus garage(s) will be required sooner rather than later and you have to pay for more operators.

 

[gweed123]

This Finch BRT thing seems to be ruffling a few feathers. Here's what I think should be done:

1) Identify 'priority' intersections (i.e. intersections that experience congestion), and build queue jump lanes at these intersections.

2) Identify congestion areas between intersections (between Yonge and Bathurst for example). Build curb side lanes along that stretch.

3) Leave un-congested areas alone for now, and only build curb cut-outs so the bus can pull out of traffic to load and unload.

4) Purchase articulated buses already!!

If these 4 steps are implemented, it will be a huge improvement over the existing bus service. And with the cost savings this will generate compared to the Finch West LRT, it can be built along the whole length of Finch for the same cost.

After the initial construction, new segments can be added incrementally, for a relatively low cost. That's the beauty with BRT, it can be built in stages.

I hate to use another example from Ottawa, but I will just to illustrate my point. In the west end, in order to reach Kanata for a large segment of the trip the buses use shoulder lanes on the Queensway, some even run in mixed traffic. In 2009, they opened a new stretch of Transitway from Pinecrest to Bayshore directly beside the Queensway. It resulted in a minor increase in route efficiency. My point here is that the service had been running for years before that upgrade was made, as it wasn't deemed essential to the service. They are also planning on extending the dedicated ROW further west to Moodie by 2014. But despite that, the Transitway routes won't be completely in their own ROW out to Kanata until about 2031, because the cost of building the dedicated ROW isn't worth the seconds it would save compared to the existing service.


And as for Sheppard, I think the subway extension to Vic Park is a good move. The EA was already completed in the early 2000s, and only needs updating. As for the rest of Sheppard East, follow the same playbook as Finch, and it'll be all good.

 

[gweed123]

I'd like to see quick in-and-out for upgraded Finch buses at Finch and Finch West Stations, not necessarily tunnel entrances, but something more than being at the mercy of opposing traffic to enter and exit. As far as BRT-lite goes, Brampton did this part right with a separate signalized exit from Bramalea Terminal and a bus only left turn lane from Queen Street; it's 10 times better than entry and exit from Viva's Richmond Hill terminal.

Finch West has the advantage in that it's being designed from scratch with a perpendicular surface rapid transit route in mind. I have no worries with that.

As for Finch station, because it will be BRT and not LRT, there are many more options for access that don't require tunnelling (which is an opportunity for significant cost savings). Since widening Finch in that area isn't really an option, what I would recommend is a by-pass route that connects directly to the Finch bus terminal:

Eastbound buses: Left at Greenview off of Finch West, right at Hendon, use Bishop to access the bus loop, right onto Kenneth, left onto Finch East. The curb side lanes would start again at Greenview and Kenneth respectively.

Not an ideal solution, but sure a hell of a lot cheaper than tunnelling, and it makes use of the existing bus loop.

There's a few pinch points where segregated lanes are essential - around the 400 especially. But probably not the entire route, though. If done right, with a proper use of various BRT measures where they are appropriate, it can be done well. At least it will be across the entire corridor, Transfer City is gone.

Exactly. Locate the congestion areas, apply relief in the form of curb side lanes there first. This way you get continuous bus routes that are able to bypass congestion locations to improve service speed and reliability.

 

[nfitz]

And as for Sheppard, I think the subway extension to Vic Park is a good move. The EA was already completed in the early 2000s, and only needs updating. As for the rest of Sheppard East, follow the same playbook as Finch, and it'll be all good.

So for about the same cost, you could either build the Sheppard East LRT line ... or a 2-km subway extension to Victoria Park - and your position is the money is best spent on the subway extension to Victoria Park?

 

[gweed123]

So for about the same cost, you could either build the Sheppard East LRT line ... or a 2-km subway extension to Victoria Park - and your position is the money is best spent on the subway extension to Victoria Park?

See my point in the Eglinton thread. No sense in repeating myself in two places, haha.

 

[Dandy Horse]

they should definitely build finch west to lrt standards, so that when the rob ford the bimbo gets kicks out of city hall finch will have a quick and easy conversion to a respectable mode of transportation for its hordes of neglected citizens.