[AlvinofDiaspar]

andrewpmk:

LRT is fairly expensive and pretty disruptive to build, once it is built we are stuck with it and there will be no political will to replace it with subways even when it becomes severely overcrowded. BRT is relatively cheap, less disruptive to build and can just be ripped out and replaced with subways if necessary.

The political will to replace anything with subway is the cost of the latter, not how much one paid for a previous piece of infrastructure - nobody really cares what was in the budget of a government decades ago. Besides, both Yonge and Bloor lines are replacement of surface rail hitting capacity limits, so the severely overcrowded argument doesn't really wash from a historical perspective.

AoD

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Can the Finch / Yonge bus terminal serve artic buses? The space seems very tight even for regular buses.

I remember taking many artics to and from Finch station in the 1990s.

 

[sixrings]

I think that the whole idea of BRT on Finch is as follows: Sheppard is the primary route across the north part of Toronto, paralleling the #1 highway corridor in the GTA (Hwy 401). I think that a subway extension east and west is needed here now. If the Sheppard subway extension is built, then Finch becomes a secondary corridor and demand will be more easily handled by buses.

The problem with LRT is that (a) Putting LRT and subway on one corridor like Sheppard is ridiculous. (b) LRT is fairly expensive and pretty disruptive to build, once it is built we are stuck with it and there will be no political will to replace it with subways even when it becomes severely overcrowded. BRT is relatively cheap, less disruptive to build and can just be ripped out and replaced with subways if necessary. Hence the fact that the Sheppard East LRT should never be revived, and the Eglinton line should be elevated through the Golden Mile not LRT.

how will the subway become over crowded? how does yonge get so crowded? FEEDER ROUTES! if sheppard lrt ever got too busy you would simply upgrade parralel routes so people change their route. upgrade finch to lrt upgrade wilson to lrt and alot of people would simply take these routes instead. it is no different then how we talk about building a parralel route to take pressure off the yonge line (drl to sheppard) or how we talk about how eglinton will divert traffic from bloor. the dream seems tl be to have a few really really good lines when in fact it would probably be more useful to have alot of good lines. my example for this is that there are peopoe i know who love the subway like the streetcar rows and hate the bus. as a result they will only take the first two. this isnt a small percentage of people. have you ever scene the line ups at the kiss and rides during rush hour or the ttc parking lots. id suggest if there was at least good transit on a major road close to these people they would simply take transit to the subway. what a concept. anyways its silly to talk about how a line could get overloaded as if there could never be a solution for it, especially when there clearly are sollutions which would be cheaper then the subway to begin with.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually overcrowding is the best way to ensure the possibility of upgrades get into the agenda. DRL is considered precisely because of that - once the the overcrowding is gone, so did the impetus for building the line.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

Actually overcrowding is the best way to ensure the possibility of upgrades get into the agenda. DRL is considered precisely because of that - once the the overcrowding is gone, so did the impetus for building the line.

AoD

Exactly. And to respond to six rings' point as well. I ask you, which is better: An LRT on one corridor, or two BRTs on two parallel corridors? The LRT would offer a moderately better quality of service, but the two BRTs would be more convenient.

Say they do build BRT on Finch, and come 2025 it's running pretty full. Is it worth it to spend around $500 million to upgrade the whole thing to LRT? Or is it better to take that money and build another BRT on Steeles or Sheppard West to relieve some of the pressure? People on Finch may say "hell no, I want LRT". But for someone living closer to one of those other corridors, who is only taking the Finch route out of convenience, they may see a Sheppard West or Steeles BRT as a greater use.

Let me ask an even more general question: If a corridor is facing a capacity constraint, is it generally better to increase the capacity on that corridor, or to build another corridor to divert some of the ridership?

(It can be debated either way, and there is plenty of historical precedence for both approaches. I'm just asking that question because in a lot of cases that we're discussing here, that question fundamentally underpins what you think should be done.)

 

[sixrings]

Actually overcrowding is the best way to ensure the possibility of upgrades get into the agenda. DRL is considered precisely because of that - once the the overcrowding is gone, so did the impetus for building the line.

AoD

overcrowding is a good motivator to build new lines. i was just hopeful a over crowded eglinton would end up causing us to make a lawrence line or a over crowded sheppard lrt line would cause us to build a wilson lrt. it never seemed to make dense to convert these lines to subway rather it made more sense simply to add new lines. transit city was meant to start with a few lines but ultimately in 50 years it might have grown to every blue line bus route being converted to lrt. maybe it wouldnt be the express service some dream over but it would be faster then the bus and would give a quality product to its users in reliability, capacity, smooth ride, and appeal.

 

[sixrings]

Exactly. And to respond to six rings' point as well. I ask you, which is better: An LRT on one corridor, or two BRTs on two parallel corridors? The LRT would offer a moderately better quality of service, but the two BRTs would be more convenient.

Say they do build BRT on Finch, and come 2025 it's running pretty full. Is it worth it to spend around $500 million to upgrade the whole thing to LRT? Or is it better to take that money and build another BRT on Steeles or Sheppard West to relieve some of the pressure? People on Finch may say "hell no, I want LRT". But for someone living closer to one of those other corridors, who is only taking the Finch route out of convenience, they may see a Sheppard West or Steeles BRT as a greater use.

Let me ask an even more general question: If a corridor is facing a capacity constraint, is it generally better to increase the capacity on that corridor, or to build another corridor to divert some of the ridership?

(It can be debated either way, and there is plenty of historical precedence for both approaches. I'm just asking that question because in a lot of cases that we're discussing here, that question fundamentally underpins what you think should be done.)

im not completely against brt. you are going to make fun because its stupid but i suggested or wanted double decker busses because every time i go to a city and can use one i do. i love the view from up top and they kinda have an asthetic appeal to them similar to a streetcar. weve all scene them in movies of london or experienced them ourselves. i agree a arctic bus is probabky way more practical but a double decker bus is plain FUN. i still havent ridden the GO double decker yet. I know FUN isnt something that you normally plan transit around, however in my opinion it would or could change the image a bit of the ttc busses into simething hip rather then the last resort for poor people.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed:

Let me ask an even more general question: If a corridor is facing a capacity constraint, is it generally better to increase the capacity on that corridor, or to build another corridor to divert some of the ridership?

Complicated answer - depends on the source/distribution of the riders, existing and projected land uses, density and form, the feasibility/cost of increasing capacity of the existing line as well as the additional benefits that building another corridor may offer.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

gweed:



Complicated answer - depends on the source/distribution of the riders, existing and projected land uses, density and form, the feasibility/cost of increasing capacity of the existing line as well as the additional benefits that building another corridor may offer.

AoD

Exactly. Although I think 1 follow-up question narrows it down pretty well: Is the line that's over capacity intended to be a trunk line or a feeder line? If it's a trunk line, increasing the capacity is probably the way to go, unless the capacity is pretty much maxed out (for example the Yonge Subway south of Bloor, where adding 7 car trains and ATC may add a bit more, but nothing short of 4-tracking it is going to give a big enough capacity boost).

On the other hand, if it's a feeder line, it's generally more accepted to build a parallel line to divert some of the ridership. This argument has been used in favour of the Eglinton LRT ("If Eglinton reaches capacity, we build some type of rapid transit on Lawrence").

I do agree that in a lot of cases it's more complex than that, but asking those 2 questions can really help focus on what you're dealing with.

And sixrings RE: Double deckers:

I understand the novelty of them, I'm just trying to plan for both practicality and novelty. If the TTC wanted to set up some sort of express services from suburban nodes to downtown, double deckers would probably be at the top of my list for vehicles to use. But on routes with high turnover, double deckers just aren't practical. It's hard enough fighting your way through 10 people trying to get to a door. Imagine fighting your way down a set of stairs too.

 

[rbt]

Say they do build BRT on Finch, and come 2025 it's running pretty full. Is it worth it to spend around $500 million to upgrade the whole thing to LRT? Or is it better to take that money and build another BRT on Steeles or Sheppard West to relieve some of the pressure? People on Finch may say "hell no, I want LRT". But for someone living closer to one of those other corridors, who is only taking the Finch route out of convenience, they may see a Sheppard West or Steeles BRT as a greater use.

It really depends on what the actual origin and destination of passengers is. Finch has a surprisingly high number of trips that do not involve a transfer; so LRT might be the right solution.

It's also possible a Vic Park BRT is the right solution if the Finch riders were going to Pape via Yonge/Danforth. If that was a common travel pattern, Vic Park BRT would offload ridership from 3 lines.


I would probably prefer a Steeles BRT myself.

 

[gweed123]

It really depends on what the actual origin and destination of passengers is. Finch has a surprisingly high number of trips that do not involve a transfer; so LRT might be the right solution.

This is true. However, the 2031 forecast for Finch West is 4,500 pphpd, which is right in the overlap between BRT and LRT, where both would work. I still say build it as BRT now, and if the demand is there by 2025 or something, upgrade it to LRT, once some other rapid transit routes have been built.

It's also possible a Vic Park BRT is the right solution if the Finch riders were going to Pape via Yonge/Danforth. If that was a common travel pattern, Vic Park BRT would offload ridership from 3 lines.

I've always been a supporter of a Vic Park BRT. It seems to me like a very logical connection, and definitely a gap in the network when you look at a map. It wouldn't be a heavily used line, hence why BRT is probably appropriate, but it would serve an important network role, very similar to a Brown's Line/427 BRT. Not to mention that, if it was built as BRT, multiple routes could overlap, serving multiple trip patterns. For example, a branch of the Finch East bus runs down Vic Park to the Sheppard subway terminus. Or a shuttle service running between Vic Park station and the employment cluster in Markham.

I would probably prefer a Steeles BRT myself.

I would go for that too, even if it was just queue jump lanes and curb cut-outs.

 

[Electrify]

Not sure if this image has been posted yet

Couple of observations:

1. Is there actually talk about Finch going through, or is this just a mistake? From everything I've read, my understanding that any Finch BRT would be exclusive to the western portion of the route.

2. Regardless of whether or not the map is accurate or not, it shows just how wasteful Sheppard was and is. Building a Finch B/LRT along the hydro corridor across the top of the city just looks to make too much sense. Two points I want to make on this:

- While it may take a little longer to walk from Finch to the hydro corridor, it is worth noting that any walk would be no worse than walking through a subway station (which is what these people want, Ford said so!) and would serve a mobility market needing to travel longer distances while buses on Finch would serve more local commutes.

- The location makes sense too. Despite what andrewpmk said above, the way rapid transit is constructed, at least in the GTA, tends to be designed to compete more with major arteries than highways. Simply look at the Spadina line. With the exception of rush hour, it is consistently passed by road traffic. The same cannot be said for the GO Lakeshore East line, which is highly visible from the 401. Even the Yonge line between Eglinton and Sheppard tops out around 70-80km/h, if that.

- A Finch line also makes sense from an urban planning theory point of view as well. You have highways around the city, and rapid transit to take people into the core. In this case, the 400, 407, 404, and 401 form the ring, while rapid transit along Finch and Yonge take people into downtown North York. This way people from out of town can get into the core without driving all the way in. This theory isn't perfect, as some argue it allows people to bypass the city possibly too easily. But personally it is far better than the alternative which is to force obscene amounts of traffic on to city through streets, or worse, build highways directly into the core.

The only way to save grace for Sheppard would be to extend it north along the Viva Green route to downtown Markham. With the new urbanist TOD being constructed there, it may have a shot of actually generating ridership - even if currently the Green line is rush hour only due to poor ridership.

EDIT: Map should be loading now.

 

[andrewpmk]

- The location makes sense too. Despite what andrewpmk said above, the way rapid transit is constructed, at least in the GTA, tends to be designed to compete more with major arteries than highways. Simply look at the Spadina line. With the exception of rush hour, it is consistently passed by road traffic. The same cannot be said for the GO Lakeshore East line, which is highly visible from the 401. Even the Yonge line between Eglinton and Sheppard tops out around 70-80km/h, if that.

Subway lines are never going to be competitive with an uncongested freeway on speed. The Yonge line is not competitive with driving on DVP and the Bloor line is not competitive with driving on Gardiner when there is no traffic congestion. Maybe if they had a 4 track express layout they could be somewhat competitive but this is prohibitively expensive. However, the 401 is always severely congested in rush hour, and I would be rich if I had a dollar whenever the 401 had traffic jams outside rush hour due to high traffic volume, accidents, bad weather, closure of DVP/Gardiner, etc. The main point of subway expansion is to provide an alternative to driving in heavy rush hour traffic. As Toronto traffic continues to deteriorate over the next few decades, suburb to suburb lines like Sheppard will become much more competitive with driving.

 

[rbt]

While it may take a little longer to walk from Finch to the hydro corridor, it is worth noting that any walk would be no worse than walking through a subway station (which is what these people want, Ford said so!) and would serve a mobility market needing to travel longer distances while buses on Finch would serve more local commutes.

Finch in Hydro corridor doesn't make much sense West of Bathurst. Obviously it is completely useless west of highway 400.

There are a few places between Bathurst and Jane on Finch where the bulk of destination are on the south side of the street and a it would be difficult to get through mid-block from the hydro corridor. One of the more obvious is where the York U busway is.

A good chunk of employment for people coming from further east on Finch (Jane area) is directly south of the impassable oil storage yards. As I've said elsewhere, Finch has an unually high number of trips that do not require a transfer. Both the origin and destination are on Finch and care must be taken to preserve these very lucrative* trips.

* TTC benefits greatly from high-turnover of full price short trips and Finch has a lot of those. If local service is gutted too much in favour of express, we may see those trips disappear.


I'm not convinced it is the best idea East of Bayview either both due to the distance involved and the roads department will take issue with adding hundreds of new lights on North/South streets.

East of the 404 the hydro corridor obviously isn't workable for Finch service as they are 1km apart.

 

[Electrify]

I've decided to continue this in an older thread, since I feel it is better placed there:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...Opportunities-for-Improved-Bus-Service/page13