[Tulse]

But you don't need to cut the cost everyones ticket to do that, just the poors. You could offer them discounted travel passes you cold give them more benefits. You could raise the minimum wage so people did not need welfare to be able to live.

Sure, all of those are options.

 

[SgtBullmoose]

Croydon (southern suburb of London): 3,994.5
Scarborough: 3,160.9

Toronto suburbs are not that much lower density than London suburbs.

The main transportation network in Croydon is the tram that was built because it couldn't support the full mainline service. Much of the route from Wimbledon to Croydon is built on disused railway bits. It also runs in mixed traffic around Centrale.

 

[andrewpmk]

There are numerous commuter rail lines in Croydon, all of which have high frequencies. The tram is a minor feeder line.

 

[Solid Snake]

I'm surprised by how many Torontonians don't actually appreciate just how big Toronto is on a global scale. And how dense too - with all our apartment blocks. Sure, Willowdale away from the arteries is very undense ... but so is Wimbledon Common/Richmond Park or Bushy Park.

This was so obvious when I saw the whole session at City Hall regarding transit. Some councilors are actually aware of that too. Unfortunately, most of them only see their ward and don't think of the city as a whole. Some of them were using Houston, Minneapolis as example for LRT and one Councilor said; "We're not Houston or Minneapolis, We're Toronto and it's time to take pride of that fact"

You have all those international organisation ranking Toronto so high on any type of list in term of how powerful the city is in a global scale and yet we keep electing people who still view us as a "Montreal+".

A councilor said with good reason that taking the LRT sends the wrong message to both Queen's Park and Ottawa; the message that Toronto will take whatever it's being thrown at for Transit. The correct message is having Eglinton as Subway (In my mind elevated is 100% acceptable) and demand more funding for Sheppard, Finch, DRL and orther streetcar and LRT lines. Toronto is the financial heart of Canada and Ontario and if our population spend more time at making Torontonians more aware of it, the city would be in a better position to pressure higher government to do more.

So it's totally fine to give subways (Spadina line) with a poor ridership (Past Steeles West) and we shoot ourselves and fight among ourselves on Eglinton??? We truly have incompetent politicians who knows nothing about "well politics". If the province can fund York fantasy dreams why can't they fund projects that are decades late and needed???


How do you think Paris get's it done?
What is France without Paris? The citizens know it and they constantly reminds France of that.
What is England without London? They know it and they constantly reminds England that they cannot be denied. Same for New York City, Tokyo etc...

I'm not a Ford follower but this city is really short-sighted on Transit and the upper level of government likes it the way it is so they can tell us right in our face
"Give me your tax $$$, I'll invest it elsewhere and give you whatever's left...once every 2 decades..."

BTW, politicians being the predictable creature that they are, I predict Metrolinx and the Province will bury Victoria Park Station to not piss off Scarborough too much...maybe even Warden unless it's elevated

world's upside down...
York wants subway=we sign them a check with no strings attached without even having consider LRT in the first place
Toronto wants subway=What??? You're just as dense as some major world cities, twice 1 million more people than Montreal but their subway is 1km shorter, so what are you saying? LRT's are too good for you now???? you don't need subway...

 

[CDL.TO]

There are numerous commuter rail lines in Croydon, all of which have high frequencies. The tram is a minor feeder line.

Yup. There are trains from East Croydon to central London every 2-5 minutes all day long.

The tram is a feeder line, as well as a line for intra-Croydon trips. That said, it works extremely well, is quite fast, and ridership has been well over projections. Very little of it runs in streets (right of way or mixed traffic), instead mostly following disused rail lines and using new routes through undeveloped land.

The Transit City philosophy that LRT should always run in the median of streets, except for where there isn't enough room is probably unique to Toronto. (I'd be surprised if there is more than one other example.)

 

[andrewpmk]

Houston and Minneapolis LRT are a joke. The systems cover a tiny part of their cities, they are slow, few people use them and 90%+ of people drive.

Los Angeles LRT is slightly less of a joke but still most people drive. There isn't even a line running along the 405 for heaven's sake.

Cities the size of Toronto need S U B W A Y S. Elevated rail and high frequency commuter trains are basically the same thing as subways because they are high capacity and grade separated. A tram line is not the same thing as a subway. Most tram lines are just like buses with a slightly higher capacity. Maybe they provide enough capacity for a line like Waterfront West. Whenever there is an 18 lane freeway that is the busiest highway in North America and it is basically impassible in rush hour that you need SUBWAYS.

 

[Paleo]

and rapidly increasing...

What's the census say? Is the population along Sheppard increasing or falling?

 

[nfitz]

What's the census say? Is the population along Sheppard increasing or falling?

Mix of falling and growing according to http://www.globalnews.ca/pages/topicNew.aspx?id=6442571714

Though it's really hard to tell, as if it fell 0% to 20% (!) it's the first shade of red, and if it rose 0% to 20% it's the first shade of blue. Not enough granularity really to see anything but huge redevelopments - though you can click on each area ... but not a quick picture.

 

[BMO]

I've been reading this thread with interest ever since the council vote a few days ago.

One side of me agrees that subways are not financially practical as Toronto simply does not have the money as it currently stands. And any new subway lines may not be warranted as they may not see full capacity for quite a few years.

But the other side of me wonders where we would be today if we applied that same thinking to the Yonge/University/Spadina and Bloor/Danforth lines? And how much better off would we be if Mike Harris didn't cancel Eglinton when there was a reasonable shot to pay for it?

Overall, subways are the way to go in my very humble opinion. Rob Ford now needs to have an honest and frank conversation with the tax payers of Toronto. If they want subways, then they are going to have to be willing to pay for them via new and increased taxes. This idea that the private sector will pay for them is simply a fantasy that Rob Ford needs to stop perpetuating.

I'll agree with this, we should come up with a way to pay for them. Good point sir.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This was so obvious when I saw the whole session at City Hall regarding transit. Some councilors are actually aware of that too. Unfortunately, most of them only see their ward and don't think of the city as a whole. Some of them were using Houston, Minneapolis as example for LRT and one Councilor said; "We're not Houston or Minneapolis, We're Toronto and it's time to take pride of that fact"

You have all those international organisation ranking Toronto so high on any type of list in term of how powerful the city is in a global scale and yet we keep electing people who still view us as a "Montreal+".:

Don't get ahead of yourself. Toronto isn't a important world class powerful city yet. But we're getting there. Toronto is consistently ranked in the top 5 best cities to do business in and the top 5 best places to live. Also it looks like Toronto will become a major global financial services provider within this decade (the city is already ranked 7th).

 

[Dandy Horse]

I wonder if when they built the gardiner Toronto made it a huge political thing about whether it was raised, at grade or below, and fought about it all the time really angry like, if it would ever have been built. my guess is no.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wonder if when they built the gardiner Toronto made it a huge political thing about whether it was raised, at grade or below, and fought about it all the time really angry like, if it would ever have been built. my guess is no.

Back then we had vision and putting it above ground made sense. Now politicians can't see past the next political cycle.

 

[Rational plan]

Houston and Minneapolis LRT are a joke. The systems cover a tiny part of their cities, they are slow, few people use them and 90%+ of people drive.

Los Angeles LRT is slightly less of a joke but still most people drive. There isn't even a line running along the 405 for heaven's sake.

Cities the size of Toronto need S U B W A Y S. Elevated rail and high frequency commuter trains are basically the same thing as subways because they are high capacity and grade separated. A tram line is not the same thing as a subway. Most tram lines are just like buses with a slightly higher capacity. Maybe they provide enough capacity for a line like Waterfront West. Whenever there is an 18 lane freeway that is the busiest highway in North America and it is basically impassible in rush hour that you need SUBWAYS.

Houstons system is small but it gets good ridership.

It's all very well arguing that Toronto should have London's or Paris transport system, but how do you get it? At C$300 million a km you are not going to get very much.

Just to build a basic network of Eglington from Airport to Kennedy, Sheperd line from Downsview to Scarborough and a new Downtown line from Downsview down to Queens, then west to Dufferin and back up to Eglington is 71 km. At a generous $300 million a km that is at least $21 billion.

While this forms a good backbone it still does not cover most of the city. For that we need the GO network to become a proper s bahn/crossrail. Union station won't be able to cope so you need a new tunnel under downtown plus upgrade of the rest of the network. That's at least another 5km of tunnel. To do half decent job we are talking at least another $10 billion there.

Still quite a few gaps there though. So we have Finch West to Humber (12.5km) and Yonge to Major Mckenzie (10.1km), thats another $6.7 billion.

Thats getting on for $38 billion, over a 20 year period that's nearly $2 billion a year. What has Toronto's average spend on transit per year been over the last 30 years? Thats the scale you are looking at to do it as Subway, where is the political will. This sort programme needs cross party support. Both sides have to agree to keep funding it.

What I suggest is to start with cheaper schemes, increased coverage will mean fewer people travelling on overcrowded buses. More people will travel on LRT than bus. LRT is cheaper and quicker to build than subway and it will certainly carry more people than a bus line.

Cheaper schemes may have lower capacity, but it means people can't accuse it of being gold plated and wasting money. A low capital spend per passenger generate a positive feedback, where politicians are in favour of more investment. As the number of LRT's overload the core network, they won't be able to resist calls for short subways in the core.

 

[sixrings]

I wonder if when they built the gardiner Toronto made it a huge political thing about whether it was raised, at grade or below, and fought about it all the time really angry like, if it would ever have been built. my guess is no.

pretty sure not many people would have cared because the elevated monstrosity would not be in their backyard. we cant build elevated because its a eye sore and may ruin property values and home owners dont want at grade because it wont raise property values enough.

 

[ILuvTO]

I'll agree with this, we should come up with a way to pay for them. Good point sir.

I have my sarcasm detector turned on but can't tell if you are teasing me.