spider
Senior Member
How do these figures look if we factor in that the Bloor and Yonge lines were much longer than the Sheppard line, maybe 5 or 10 times longer?
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- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
YUS (not just Yonge) is about 6x the length of Sheppard (700k vs. 48k/day); BD 5x (500k vs. 48k/day). Based on RTES, Sheppard extended to STC only gives you 100k/day.
AoD
AoD
BMO
Senior Member
Yonge st, between Finch and Highway 7 has a bunch of BUS routes along the same path. It apparently as sufficient ridership to warrant a subway. Looks like you don't need to go through LRT to get to subway.
Electrify
Senior Member
Believe it was in another thread, but there were 3 points about transit expansion into Scarborough which continue to be ignored:
1. There are a LOT of high rises, which provide lots of increased density. The way people talk about the outer 416, I wonder if they've been there since the early 1960s.
2. A lot of the people who populate these buildings and regions are if low income, meaning they are more likely to use transit than to drive.
3. The large areas of segregated land use would mean people would use transit over walking.
Edit: Want to reaffirm that I don't think that the subway extension is warranted, but the way people talk about Scarborough you would think that there was no difference between it and Oakville.
1. There are a LOT of high rises, which provide lots of increased density. The way people talk about the outer 416, I wonder if they've been there since the early 1960s.
2. A lot of the people who populate these buildings and regions are if low income, meaning they are more likely to use transit than to drive.
3. The large areas of segregated land use would mean people would use transit over walking.
Edit: Want to reaffirm that I don't think that the subway extension is warranted, but the way people talk about Scarborough you would think that there was no difference between it and Oakville.
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Memph
Active Member
What was the ridership of Toronto's subway lines when they were built? Yonge & Sheppard was a rather different place before the subway. I would imagine it would be something similar to Paleo's numbers... what's the approximate conversion factor between daily ridership and pphd, around 10x?
nfitz
Superstar
It's function of the type of line. On a line that primarily moves commuters from A to B the conversion factor between daily ridership and pphd is closer to 4! (2 hours in each direction ...).
But also it's a function of the turnover on the line. On a typical streetcar, if you ever ride end to end, you see the same seat used by 4 or 5 people. On a GO Train from Union to Oshawa, that seat is normally only used once (at least if they are achieving their standards on standees).
There's two values to look at. The peak hour ridership (the number of riders that use the line during the peak hour). And the peak point ridership, which is pphpd (people per hour per direction). If you look at the modelling for the Big Move, the conversion between daily ridership and peak point (pphpd) is almost 30 on the existing subways, about 11.5 on the Sheppard subway (increasing to 12.2 if expanded to the SRT as per RTES), 22 on the DRL, 27 on the Eglinton crosstown, 16 on the SRT ... to as low as 5 on the Barrie GO train. Actually Big Move only gives annual ridership, and I've converted this to daily using the rule of thumb of dividing by 300 (which might be a bit high for the Barrie GO train, but a bit low for the BD and YUS lines).
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
world's upside down...
York wants subway=we sign them a check with no strings attached without even having consider LRT in the first place
Toronto wants subway=What??? You're just as dense as some major world cities, twice 1 million more people than Montreal but their subway is 1km shorter, so what are you saying? LRT's are too good for you now???? you don't need subway...
Slow clap...
The 5000 expected riders from VCC just have to have a subway, no?
I've said it before, and I know the plan is there so the comment is moot, the money spent on extending the York line North from Steeles W could have built an LRT from Steeles W North to Vaughan Mills Mall which is obviously a trip generator. This could have been integrated into the Jane LRT in the TC plan.
Meh
nfitz
Superstar
It wouldn't have been a bad idea (build LRT instead ... probably could have gotten to Teston road past Canada's Wonderland ...).
But there are some benefits to connecting both the 407 Transitway at Highway 407 station and also the Highway 7 BRT services at Vaughan Centre station, without requiring people to transfer. The line will be about 39 km long; if only the last 2 km is underused, then it's done pretty good.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
And in Canada's Wonderland the LRT could have become part of one of the rides for it's station there.
Paleo
Active Member
andrewpmk
Senior Member
Also what happens if we factor in:
- Ridership on parallel bus routes e.g. 39 Finch East, 199 Finch Rocket, 53 Steeles East, 95 York Mills
- Car traffic on Sheppard and parallel roads such as 401, Finch, Steeles, York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson
401 alone has a capacity of 14000-18000 cars/hour/direction (assume 2000 cars/hour/lane for simplicity, I know with the 2 second rule it should be 1800 but people tailgate and Wikipedia says 2000) and carries far more people than the Sheppard line. Also all the east west bus routes from Eglinton northward carry far more people than the Sheppard line as well.
The difference with the severely overcrowded streetcars that the Yonge and Bloor lines replaced was that car traffic was not much of a factor. There were a few streetcar lines like Harbord and Bay that competed with the Bloor and Yonge streetcars, but the Gardiner, DVP and 401 were only being built around the same time as the subways.
Paleo
Active Member
Can't count on that. How many people moving from a point on Queen or St. Clair to another point on the same street will use the green subway line? For anyone going short to even medium distances, no one will take a 4km detour with extra transfers to take a subway.
For the downtown oriented travelers who would take such a trip, we're better off spending billions on upgrades to the Richmond Hill and Stouffville GO lines instead of wasting it on burying rail lines in suburbia.
There's no evidence that anyone using the 401 would hop off to use a subway on Sheppard. Are the 401 exits between Yonge and McCowan the busiest? Maybe the "exit" to the 404 north.
Dan416
Senior Member
I do find it shocking that some members on here support the subway to Vaughan but don't support finishing the Sheppard line. Makes zero sense to me.
Anyway, the SaveOurSubways domains I let expire. I saw no need for them anymore since Transit City was dead. It appears SaveOurSubways.ca still has our original material.
If I still had the domains though I'd happily hand them over to Ford & Co.
I think this LRTista nonsense has gone on far enough. LRT should go where it's appropriate. LRT is fine on Eglinton, but they have to ensure the above-ground portions are JUST AS FAST as the below-ground portions.
Finch LRT is fine.
Sheppard East LRT is plain stupid and I will never support it, not in a million years. If you don't think Sheppard East supports a subway--fine, don't do anything on Sheppard. But don't be stupid and put an LRT there. It's just a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned and it angers me to no end.
Anyway, the SaveOurSubways domains I let expire. I saw no need for them anymore since Transit City was dead. It appears SaveOurSubways.ca still has our original material.
If I still had the domains though I'd happily hand them over to Ford & Co.
I think this LRTista nonsense has gone on far enough. LRT should go where it's appropriate. LRT is fine on Eglinton, but they have to ensure the above-ground portions are JUST AS FAST as the below-ground portions.
Finch LRT is fine.
Sheppard East LRT is plain stupid and I will never support it, not in a million years. If you don't think Sheppard East supports a subway--fine, don't do anything on Sheppard. But don't be stupid and put an LRT there. It's just a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned and it angers me to no end.
nfitz
Superstar
Makes a lot of sense. Heck, if we only needed another 2 km to extend to Scarborough Centre I'd support it too.
Justin10000
Banned
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I support a subway to York U, and Steeles. Having the line go to Vaughn was a compromise that could not be turned down.