[Amphibius]

I would think that Sheppard is a better place for subway than Eglinton. Sheppard is quite far from Bloor and there is no other good alternative for fast E-W trips across the north of 416. For Eglinton, the alternatives would be Bloor subway, and in future (hopefully) the Midtown GO line. So, Eglinton can focus on better short- and medium-length trips, and being a feeder for multiple subway and GO lines that cross it, or will cross it in future. LRT should work just fine for those purposes.

Besides, a portion of Sheppard subway exists already.

Regarding the fully separated Sheppard E and Scarborough LRT: where would they be placed? Maps do not show space for them (although I am not familiar with the areas).

Just because Sheppard's partially built, doesn't mean it has to be expanded out as a subway line. BRT along the 401 could handle alot of the concerns regarding fast, reliable crosstown transit in the northern 416 for far less expense, partnership with the Finch West/Sheppard East LRTs. With 3 express services in addition to the local bus network, northern 416 should do more than okay with that.

Eglinton however does already have subway-grade potential with many swaths of the corridor Avenueized and taking on a downtown nabe feel and density. It could even be incorporated into the DRL, creating a loop line encircling the greater downtown area, with LRT branching out from either ends into suburbia.

 

[doady]

Well, I'm not going to lie: Transit City sucks, and it will probably prevent us from having a decent intracity rapid transit system for the foreseeable future. That said, it doesn't really mean that Toronto is going down the drain. This city is too robust and dynamic for that and, if it wasn't for the abysmal state of our transit system, I would say that Toronto is firing on all cylinders. Transportation is very important, but it won't completely make or break the city. Besides, Transit City is, at least, better than the status quo (bus service), even if it is horribly expensive for what it does and would fail any real cost benefit analysis.

Yes, Transit City might have small positive impact on the city in the near future, say 5-10 years. But it will have a huge negative impact on the city 20 or 30 years from now. Transit City is only an improvement compared the existing system, but it will seriously limit what the system potentially could be... because LRT is far more permanent than buses.

They may as well call it the eglinton subway then! =P

In chicago there is the red-line. Our subway system is actually 90% above ground. Anyhows, the red line goes down bellow ground, and the bellow ground part is called the state-street subway. Same with the blue line. Now, it's all heavy rail, but perhaps they might do that, call it a subway just 'cause it's bellow ground.


But still, I am just disgusted that the underground part is not a real subway, if they bother to dig.

The only reason they are going underground for Eglinton is because the street is probably too narrow for a ROW.

Eglinton would connect to the airport, yet they build it as LRT instead of subway. It is a waste. A line that connects to the airport should have as high capacity and speed as possible...

 

[ShonTron]

LRT to the airport is fine (there's lots of LRTs that serve major airports just fine), but they aren't even considering using the Richview Transportation Corridor properly. An underground LRT for central Eglinton, plus a surface high-speed LRT (think Edmonton, Minneapolis, Baltimore even) alongside Eglinton would be pretty close to a subway in speed.

 

[Dan416]

LRT to the airport is fine (there's lots of LRTs that serve major airports just fine), but they aren't even considering using the Richview Transportation Corridor properly. An underground LRT for central Eglinton, plus a surface high-speed LRT (think Edmonton, Minneapolis, Baltimore even) alongside Eglinton would be pretty close to a subway in speed.

That's just it. Since they're not doing that though, it's a waste. If you're going to do "follow the street", it should be subway/tunneled (or own ROW), since otherwise it'll never be car-competitive.

 

[kEiThZ]

That's just it. Since they're not doing that though, it's a waste. If you're going to do "follow the street", it should be subway/tunneled (or own ROW), since otherwise it'll never be car-competitive.

I dunno if 'car-competitive' should be the absolute goal. We don't have too many transit systems that can compare with the speed of the personal automobile. GO might come as close as it gets. Subways, however, would never achieve that for any serious distance.

What we need are a whole host of solutions. GO REX for speedy travel from the suburbs. Subways for more moderate long distance travel. And LRTs for more local intra-suburban travel. From that perspective, there are some TC lines that could fair pretty well. For example the much maligned Sheppard line has portions that do well. For example, getting to Scarborough Town Centre from Dean Park just became a lot easier. Where Sheppard fairs poorly of course, is that east of McCowan many folks are traveling out of Scarborough at peak and need a subway. So we shouldn't totally rule out all of TC's efforts. In my view, it's a great idea, poorly executed.

That being said....Toronto had a choice between a mayor who wanted to build 2km of subway a year and a mayor who wanted to implement his social policies by building LRT lines and by sinking a successful start-up airline. I hope TC does get built in all its glory. It's the only way voters in this city will get some sense and actually pay attention to the issues. I'll bet all those who gripe on here about TC voted for Miller and dissed Pitfield's subway building spree. People get the governments they deserve. We can't complain now about TC.

 

[Rainforest]

Just because Sheppard's partially built, doesn't mean it has to be expanded out as a subway line. BRT along the 401 could handle alot of the concerns regarding fast, reliable crosstown transit in the northern 416 for far less expense, partnership with the Finch West/Sheppard East LRTs. With 3 express services in addition to the local bus network, northern 416 should do more than okay with that.

BRT-401 is an interesting idea, but it should be evaluated before writing off the Sheppard subway.

I can see a few issues with BRT-401. First of all, the only way to create a right-of-way with a low per-km cost is taking two lanes away from the general traffic. This probably makes sense, but will encounter quite a bit of opposition from the motorists and cargo carriers.

Secondly, the stops cannot be located at the curbside of 401. Consequently, the buses will have to exit and reenter 401 to service major stations like Yonge / York Mills, or STC. That, in turn, requires very wide stop spacing (like STC, Fairview, Yonge, Yorkdale, North Etobicoke) to preserve the speed, leading to poor integration with local transit.

And finally, if this route becomes a major player, how many buses will it require?

Eglinton however does already have subway-grade potential with many swaths of the corridor Avenueized and taking on a downtown nabe feel and density. It could even be incorporated into the DRL, creating a loop line encircling the greater downtown area, with LRT branching out from either ends into suburbia.

But if the main goal to support Avenueization, LRT should be sufficient. Some even claim that surface LRT is better than subway for that purpose, as the stops are more accessible.

It is the feeder traffic that creates the need of subway-level capacity, and it seems that Sheppard has more potential for that, as Eglinton is closer to Bloor subway and Midtown GO line.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I'll bet all those who gripe on here about TC voted for Miller and dissed Pitfield's subway building spree. People get the governments they deserve. We can't complain now about TC.

I dunno. I never voted for Miller and I know scarberian voted for Pitfield, so that's two vocal TC opponents that don't fit your theory.

Why can't we complain about TC? Why can't we complain about the largest civic works project in Toronto history basically being railroaded (pardon the pun) down our collective throats without so much as a balanced assessment of the alternatives?

 

[ShonTron]

I admit I voted for Miller, but he never campaigned on TC - it was first announced in March 2007, nearly five months after the last election.

 

[nfitz]

I admit I voted for Miller, but he never campaigned on TC - it was first announced in March 2007, nearly five months after the last election.

????? Transit City is merely the implementation of the official plan, which dates from the Lastman era. Miller was supportive of the concepts - and there are quotes from the TTC about such a concept that predate the last election.

 

[kEiThZ]

I dunno. I never voted for Miller and I know scarberian voted for Pitfield, so that's two vocal TC opponents that don't fit your theory.

I never said every opponent of TC on this board voted for Miller. And I should hope that those who didn't would be particularly critical of TC. Scarberian has certainly articulated his arguments well.

I admit I voted for Miller, but he never campaigned on TC - it was first announced in March 2007, nearly five months after the last election.

Sure enough. The guy campaigned on a bridge and a broom and then decided to ram Transit City through. And they say Harper has a hidden agenda!

????? Transit City is merely the implementation of the official plan, which dates from the Lastman era. Miller was supportive of the concepts - and there are quotes from the TTC about such a concept that predate the last election.

Last I recall, the official plan coming out of the Lastman era never made any mention of Transit City or Light Rail Transit networks. Sure, there were some comments here and there, but let's not kid anyone the concept is entirely a Miller-Giambrone concept. Giambrone provided the transportation policy: no more subways, LRT all the way. Miller provided the social policy: we shall raise land values in struggling neighbourhoods by blanketing them with LRT lines. Et voila! Transit City.

 

[ShonTron]

I'll humour you and pull out my copy of the Official Plan, nfitz.

Map 4: Higher Order Transit Corridors:
Finch Hydro ROW
Kingston Road through to Guildwood GO
Sheppard from Yonge to Downsview
Sheppard from Don Mills to Scarborough Town Centre, via a subway-like alignment east of Kennedy
St. Clair to Runnymede (the U/C St. Clair streetcar ROW)
Markham Road/SRT extension from McCowan to Markham Road, into York Region
Spadina Subway to York U/Vaughan (U/C)
Waterfront West LRT
Don Mills/Redway busway to downtown (Richmond/Adelade)
Eglinton from the Airport to Kingston Road (the only part that matches TC)

You can see it here: http://www.toronto.ca/planning/official_plan/pdf_chapter1-5/4_hi_trans_2006.pdf

Then there's Map 5: Surface Transit Priority Network. Indeed, most of the TC map is represented here, except Sheppard east of McCowan, none of Morningside. But the entire streetcar network is shown, as is Wilson, York Mills to Vic Park, Vic Park, Sheppard West, Markham Road, Queensway, Dufferin, Bathurst, Finch East, Steeles. Such surface priority measures could include signal priority (which streetcars do have, and use, to varying levels of success), queue-jump, bus-only and HOV lanes and potentially ROWs. But no details.

You can see it here: http://www.toronto.ca/planning/official_plan/pdf_chapter1-5/5_surf_trans_2006.pdf

Also, as widely pointed out, there's major differences between where Avenueization is to occur and where TC goes. The most "Avenuizing" stretch is Sheppard West, where there's actually relatively poor surface transit (the 85), and studies were completed for other stretches, like Wilson from Keele to Bathurst, where LRT is not planned. It's hard to see how TC came out of the Official Plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ I graciously concede to you sir!

It should be noted though, that while the corridors were mentioned, how they were to be tackled was left open to debate. Sheppard would have seen the subway completed. Eglinton too might have been pushed forward as a subway. Some of those might have been pushed forward as BRT or semi-BRT diamond lane projects, etc. And few of course, would have been carried forward as LRT. Really, who would have mentioned TC coming out of that? And most of all who would have thought that Jane and Morninside would have been singled out as priorities over priorities in this plan such as Sheppard West.

 

[ShonTron]

I wasn't debating you, Keithz, I was debating Niftz.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I never said every opponent of TC on this board voted for Miller.

You sure did! I suppose I was being reactionary, but your original comment (cf: "I'll bet all those who gripe on here about TC voted for Miller") was a little snide.

 

[nfitz]

I'll humour you and pull out my copy of the Official Plan, nfitz.

Perhaps you should humour yourself and read the rest of it. Plan 2 and section 2.2.3 for example.

Sure, the higher-order transit corridors have shifted a little. But it's mostly there. Jane, Don Mills, Waterfront West, Sheppard East, Eglinton. Finch has moved a short distance from the Hydro ROW to the road itself. Scarborough-Malvern and Sheppard east of Kennedy is a new twist. But the whole thing long pre-dates Miller as mayor.