[Ansem]

We can't fit everything in the main statement.

Let's agree on a general statement then we'll discuss which arguments and solution we proposed. Then we'll include it in the petition. We'll need those to educate those who will be willing to sign.

 

[Whoaccio]

Is the Finch West-Don Mills LRT 'connector' actually a serious thing? I always thought it was a joke or something, given how ridiculous it is.

 

[UD2]

^^

Stop wasting your lives guys. The subway option was considered for Sheppard Ave. in the initial stages of the Sheppard LRT EA. The option was dropped in favor of the current LRT project. This will be their official response if they ever give you one.

The more important part is. No rational bureaucrat or politician will hit the brakes on an infrastructure project that’s supported by the majority and funded by all levels of government.

The last point I want to make is that enough is enough. Some people can never be satisfied so let’s not be those people. SOS was a pathetic group. But being on the direct opposite of that scale isn't very practical either.

Be happy with what you got and know that progress come in steps.

 

[Ansem]

^^

Stop wasting your lives guys. The subway option was considered for Sheppard Ave. in the initial stages of the Sheppard LRT EA. The option was dropped in favor of the current LRT project. This will be their official response if they ever give you one.

The more important part is. No rational bureaucrat or politician will hit the brakes on an infrastructure project that’s supported by the majority and funded by all levels of government.

The last point I want to make is that enough is enough. Some people can never be satisfied so let’s not be those people. SOS was a pathetic group. But being on the direct opposite of that scale isn't very practical either.

Be happy with what you got and know that progress come in steps.

Elections are in one year...

If this Sheppard opposition group gets media attention, people from scarborough and north york would be aware of the REAL facts and they would come to the conclusion that the subway is the better way.

If it gets media attention and that citizen write to their councillors, Miller and his goons would be aware that the majority wants a subway.

The fact the elections are coming, it doesnt matter if its Miller or not. We want this to be an election issue. If Miller gets a strong opponent, winning Scarborough and North York is crucial. Proposing to complete the subway would almost garantee that candidate the votes.

Sheppard Subway lacks media exposure and this is the goal of this petition and also showing politician that Sheppard East is unnaceptable.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From LRT and Subway Construction Costs website:

What is the Cost of Building a Subway Line?

Underground: $200 million to $250 million per kilometre
At grade: $150 million to $200 million per kilometre

...plus the cost of vehicles.​

Spadina-York Extension: $266.5 million per kilometre, vehicles and yard improvements excluded

What is the Cost of Building an LRT Line?

Underground: $130 million to $160 million per kilometre
At grade: $30 million to $50 million per kilometre

...including the cost of vehicles.
​

Transit City Proposal

$42.6 million per kilometre above ground, vehicles included
$142.8 million per kilometre tunnelled, vehicles included​

It will be too expensive, unless they find gold or diamonds while digging the heavy rail subway tunnels.

 

[UD2]

Elections are in one year...

If this Sheppard opposition group gets media attention, people from Scarborough and north York would be aware of the REAL facts and they would come to the conclusion that the subway is the better way.

If it gets media attention and that citizen write to their councilors, Miller and his goons would be aware that the majority wants a subway.

The fact the elections are coming, it doesn’t matter if it’s Miller or not. We want this to be an election issue. If Miller gets a strong opponent, winning Scarborough and North York is crucial. Proposing to complete the subway would almost guarantee that candidate the votes.

Sheppard Subway lacks media exposure and this is the goal of this petition and also showing politician that Sheppard East is unnaceptable.

This will be a non-issue. As far as officialdom goes, the EA had already considered subway as an option and concluded that the marginal returns of a subway over the current LRT project did not justify its costs. Plus the fact that this project has already been funded would also make grounds for Miller to paint anybody who tries to stop the project as participating in political foot dragging and pro bureaucratic red tape.

The project was also overwhelmingly supported in the City Council. If a majority now jump out to oppose the project, they become vulnerable to their opponents painting them as flip flops and unprincipled.

Also, with Eglinton being built to be subway ready throughout the inner city, pro LRT activists can easily argue that Eglinton can be converted into a subway line should ridership exceed the capacity of the LRT. And because such a convinent option already exists, building another subway line on Sheppard would be a gigantic waste of the tax payer's money and anyone advocating for such an option would be fiscally undisciplined.

On that note, your pro Sheppard subway activists would have to argue that Sheppard is a better subway candidate than Eglinton; But by doing that, they will indirectly imply that building a subway ready Eglinton LRT is not as worthwhile as building a Sheppard Subway. This will antagonize not only the pro Eglinton subway camp but also the pro Eglinton LRT camp, as the LRT cannot be built on Eglinton unless it is buried underground in a subway like form. And on top of that, sadly, the pro Airport transit link camp won't feel very comfy with you either.


If you plan to run for mayor, or infact anything, on this platform. I wish you all the best.

 

[lead82]

Good points.

Sheppard East is a done deed. Lets move on. Since Sheppard will basically end at Don Mills for the foreseeable future, it would make a lot of sense to at least finish it to Downsview for network connectivity and to reduce one transfer for those coming from the east.

It would also add a connection to Wilson Yard for Yonge North trains (for that extension), and offer an alternate way downtown during Yonge subway delays.

I would propose that Finch East LRT from Yonge to Don Mills be scrapped and use that money to help pay for Sheppard west to Downsview. It can be built at first with just 2 stops (Bathurst and Downsview, and maybe roughed in boxes for Senlac and Faywood). Both stations would not need to be big since no bus depots are needed.

 

[sixrings]

Why not convert sheppard Subway to LRT which would continue west to downsview underground as well

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^^

Stop wasting your lives guys. The subway option was considered for Sheppard Ave. in the initial stages of the Sheppard LRT EA. The option was dropped in favor of the current LRT project. This will be their official response if they ever give you one.

The more important part is. No rational bureaucrat or politician will hit the brakes on an infrastructure project that’s supported by the majority and funded by all levels of government.

The last point I want to make is that enough is enough. Some people can never be satisfied so let’s not be those people. SOS was a pathetic group. But being on the direct opposite of that scale isn't very practical either.

Be happy with what you got and know that progress come in steps.

You should know that the subway extension was rejected *after* they had already made up their mind to change official policies and plans and build an LRT line where it isn't needed or wanted. The whole EA & consultation process was a joke. The majority does not support the LRT. Of course, the majority does not even know that the LRT will offer no benefits beyond what the existing bus service does and can do. The Sheppard LRT is not progress. It will probably be such a fiasco that other LRT lines in places that could really use LRT will be threatened.

 

[W. K. Lis]

You should know that the subway extension was rejected *after* they had already made up their mind to change official policies and plans and build an LRT line where it isn't needed or wanted. The whole EA & consultation process was a joke. The majority does not support the LRT. Of course, the majority does not even know that the LRT will offer no benefits beyond what the existing bus service does and can do. The Sheppard LRT is not progress. It will probably be such a fiasco that other LRT lines in places that could really use LRT will be threatened.

I would support replaced Transit City's LRT with heavy rail, but AT THE SAME PRICE. Not going to happen.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I would support replaced Transit City's LRT with heavy rail, but AT THE SAME PRICE. Not going to happen.

Why the same price? The money available for transit is not finite and is not transferrable to other projects. The city would never build a Morningside subway or a Jane subway or a Finch subway, so the comparison is pointless. Here's a crazy thought: let's focus on the actual benefits of transit projects instead of utterly meaningless cost comparisons...the Sheppard LRT will provide amazingly few benefits and some people will see service quality decline. Buses can provide better service on Sheppard than the LRT will for virtually no added cost.

 

[lead82]

The TTC is doing the SELRT to save operational costs, since less drivers and vehicles will be required to provide the same service today vs. buses. Capacity will be increased and service may be slightly faster in rush hours, but that's $1B down the drain.

I think it's time to give up on this project since it's too late at this stage to have it canceled given funding approvals from all 3 levels of gov't.

 

[nfitz]

I'd suggest changing the petition so instead of replacing the LRT with a subway, that it's replaced with Star Trek-style transporters. It's got about as much chance as happening - and would be a lot quicker, so it is of greater benefit.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The TTC is doing the SELRT to save operational costs, since less drivers and vehicles will be required to provide the same service today vs. buses. Capacity will be increased and service may be slightly faster in rush hours, but that's $1B down the drain.

I think it's time to give up on this project since it's too late at this stage to have it canceled given funding approvals from all 3 levels of gov't.

No, it's not too late to get cancelled. Governments change, the economy changes, etc. But getting something different built instead as an immediate reaction to the cancellation is unlikely. What Sheppard could do is leave such a bad taste in this city's mouth once finished that future LRT projects are curtailed...including some that need to be built. It's time we stopped basing transit policy on spiting Mel Lastman and decisions made decades ago like stimulating suburban centres.

It's way too early to assume operational costs will go down...even if they do, it'll take a long time to recoup the billion wasted dollars. Remember that service quality will go down in some areas to pay for these savings. A couple extra km/hr of vehicle speed is easily offset by reduced frequencies and increased walking distances. I'm sure people will point to new developments as a way of recouping the wasted caiptal investment, but unless the city razes all the houses in Malvern and kicks out employers in industrial lands, the new developments that materialize around places like Consumers or Agincourt would have been built anyway through zoning and other planning measures.

 

[Rainforest]

I would support replaced Transit City's LRT with heavy rail, but AT THE SAME PRICE. Not going to happen.

Replacing all Transit City's LRT with heavy rail at the same price, is neither possible nor necessary.

But Sheppard East is a special case, since a longer stretch of LRT can be usefully replaced with a shorter stretch of subway. Then, the difference in cost won't be that large.

One can counter that people living near Sheppard east of Kennedy would get neither LRT nor subway at their doorsteps if the LRT is cancelled. But, many of them would still benefit from the subway, since a portion of their trip becomes faster.