[UD2]

That's a rather unfair view. I grew up in Malvern. My family still lives there. And every one of them that I've talked to think a subway would be so much better than LRT (once they found out what LRT is...a fancy tram). That's why I support a subway. I also want a more connected network with an extension to the west. And I can accept that it could be built in phases...ideally with an extension to Agincourt GO first, to STC next, and to Downsview last. As presently constituted the LRT will help very few people.

Consider the following scenarios in the post TC era:

1) From Neilson and Sheppard or Morningside and Sheppard, I want to get downtown. I would simply take a short bus ride on Sheppard to the SRT extension to catch a ride to Kennedy and proceed from there. SELRT is not required, and would make a marginal contribution to travel times at best.

2) From VP and Sheppard to Don Mills Station. Service is actually worse. There used to be a bus going by every minute. Now there's a tram going by every 5 mins. It'll take longer to get to Don Mills. Ditto from say McCowan and Sheppard.

3) From Meadowvale and Sheppard to Don Mills Station. It's about 15 km. You have a choice of 23 kph on LRT or 17 kph for 10 km and 30 kph for 5km using a bus/subway combo. The latter works out to only 6 mins longer. However, it provides a much more frequent and comfortable service to where the bulk of the population is (prior to Agincourt). And there's nothing that says a little can't be spent to build curbside bus lanes to improve bus speeds, which would actually make the bus/subway combo faster without sacrificing stop spacing or frequency significantly.

And these scenarios don't even include the impact on parallel arterials. What use is the SELRT to Finch East or Ellesmere/York Mills bus riders? However, a Finch East bus that meets the subway at Kennedy would actually have demand. Ditto for an Ellesmere bus terminating at STC or a York Mills bus terminating at VP station.

I grow up on Leslie and I still live there. And infact I'm paying for development of all these transit improvements as well as operations through my property taxes and higher license plate sticker prices.

To have someone who lives in Malvern, or Mississauga, to come in and tell me that I outta drop my current transit plans to opt for something 15 times more expansive, that I have to pay for, just so that they can have the convinence to use the transit at a operating cost that I subsidize, now that's unfair.

If Mississauga and/or Malvern and/or York would like to chip in and pay for the extra cost of converting it into a subway. Then be my guest and I'll treat you dinner. But that's not likely going to happen is it? Infact, non of the warriors who are yelling and banging for this petition are coming forward to provide a fiscally possible plan to pay for this extra cost. So why are we talking about this?

In a world with unlimited funds, ofcourse we'd all go for a subway. Infact, if that were the case, I'd petition for a maglev. But we don't live in such world, and money, to everybody who is paying it out of their pocket, is very important. And THAT's why we're opting for the LRT. Not because it's better, but because its what we can afford.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I grow up on Leslie and I still live there. And infact I'm paying for development of all these transit improvements as well as operations through my property taxes and higher license plate sticker prices.

To have someone who lives in Malvern, or Mississauga, to come in and tell me that I outta drop my current transit plans to opt for something 15 times more expansive, that I have to pay for, just so that they can have the convinence to use the transit at a operating cost that I subsidize, now that's unfair.

If Mississauga and/or Malvern and/or York would like to chip in and pay for the extra cost of converting it into a subway. Then be my guest and I'll treat you dinner. But that's not likely going to happen is it? Infact, non of the warriors who are yelling and banging for this petition are coming forward to provide a fiscally possible plan to pay for this extra cost. So why are we talking about this?

In a world with unlimited funds, ofcourse we'd all go for a subway. Infact, if that were the case, I'd petition for a maglev. But we don't live in such world, and money, to everybody who is paying it out of their pocket, is very important. And THAT's why we're opting for the LRT. Not because it's better, but because its what we can afford.

*cue the violins*

You're paying like a billionth of the cost of the line...unless you're some megamillionaire, you personally are contributing about the cost of a lightbulb.

What we truly cannot afford is to spend a billion dollars replacing buses with a service that won't be any better than the buses. That's what's going on here.

 

[kettal]

The "war on car" thing isn't as ridiculous as many downtowner's think it. At least for something like Sheppard, the nearest alternative (Finch) is more than 2 km north. Yea, there is the argument that people will just switch to public transit, but by the TTC's own numbers the SE LRT won't induce anyone to switch. Almost all of their ridership growth is due to expected population growth, not modal shifts. If you just take away capacity without adding a viable alternative (as in, something that travels faster than a bicycle), drivers do have a bit of a fair concern.

What's the point of this post? No driving lanes are being removed from Sheppard.

 

[Voltz]

What's the point of this post? No driving lanes are being removed from Sheppard.

Well, actually a short section where sheppard is currently six lanes is being reduced to four, but overall I do think the driving situation will be improved as bikes and busses will be removed from the general traffic lanes.

 

[golodhendil]

I grow up on Leslie and I still live there. And infact I'm paying for development of all these transit improvements as well as operations through my property taxes and higher license plate sticker prices.

To have someone who lives in Malvern, or Mississauga, to come in and tell me that I outta drop my current transit plans to opt for something 15 times more expansive, that I have to pay for, just so that they can have the convinence to use the transit at a operating cost that I subsidize, now that's unfair.

If Mississauga and/or Malvern and/or York would like to chip in and pay for the extra cost of converting it into a subway. Then be my guest and I'll treat you dinner. But that's not likely going to happen is it? Infact, non of the warriors who are yelling and banging for this petition are coming forward to provide a fiscally possible plan to pay for this extra cost. So why are we talking about this?

In a world with unlimited funds, ofcourse we'd all go for a subway. Infact, if that were the case, I'd petition for a maglev. But we don't live in such world, and money, to everybody who is paying it out of their pocket, is very important. And THAT's why we're opting for the LRT. Not because it's better, but because its what we can afford.

In case you are still deluding yourself to think that you are the only one with any stake in this project and its fallout, I am also a North Yorker directly affected by these services, my family and I also are paying for these transit "improvements" as much as you are and we would like to see our money used in the most efficient and reasonable way that would make real improvements to transit in the area. A fiscally possible plan? Scarb and CC and others have pointed out time and again how that can be done - by not wasting billions on surface-running LRTs that worsen the service level, and spending it on progressively extending the subway to its intended length while wisely avoiding TTC's traditional wasteful practice of extravagant stations and other cost-wasting measures, and making much cheaper but much more effective improvements to bus service in the interim.

Funny that you would say a Malvernite should have no say on your transit plan, because this "LRT to Malvern" is the exact reason we are getting this mess on Sheppard right now (not that it's the Malvernites' fault because they didn't come up with this plan). And petitioning for a maglev to run a frequent-stop urban mass transit line? It's even more delusional than one could imagine.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Well, actually a short section where sheppard is currently six lanes is being reduced to four, but overall I do think the driving situation will be improved as bikes and busses will be removed from the general traffic lanes.

Yeah, bikes a big problem on Sheppard

Buses will be removed, except for the 4 or 5 routes that will continue to run along Sheppard. Maybe they'll just trash service on these routes to appease drivers, or terminate them all at VP and have people transfer again to get to Don Mills.

 

[UD2]

*cue the violins*

You're paying like a billionth of the cost of the line...unless you're some megamillionaire, you personally are contributing about the cost of a lightbulb.

What we truly cannot afford is to spend a billion dollars replacing buses with a service that won't be any better than the buses. That's what's going on here.

No comment on the first part of your post.

As for the second part. Is that your opinion? Or do you actually have some real data to back this up? Because the TTC have real data and cases to backup their claim. I'm with the TTC.

Convince me and the world that you're right.

 

[UD2]

In case you are still deluding yourself to think that you are the only one with any stake in this project and its fallout, I am also a North Yorker directly affected by these services, my family and I also are paying for these transit "improvements" as much as you are and we would like to see our money used in the most efficient and reasonable way that would make real improvements to transit in the area. A fiscally possible plan? Scarb and CC and others have pointed out time and again how that can be done - by not wasting billions on surface-running LRTs that worsen the service level, and spending it on progressively extending the subway to its intended length while wisely avoiding TTC's traditional wasteful practice of extravagant stations and other cost-wasting measures, and making much cheaper but much more effective improvements to bus service in the interim.

Funny that you would say a Malvernite should have no say on your transit plan, because this "LRT to Malvern" is the exact reason we are getting this mess on Sheppard right now (not that it's the Malvernites' fault because they didn't come up with this plan). And petitioning for a maglev to run a frequent-stop urban mass transit line? It's even more delusional than one could imagine.

Yes. Because the cost of station art is the same as digging a tunnel under an urbanized area. Come up with a real plan that includes numbers and backups on how to make this work and I'll believe you. Otherwise you need to answer my question on where this money will come from before you start talking. Numbers.... otherwise shhhh... understand?

Toronto is paying 1/3 of the cost. Marlvern isn't. Toronto, it's mayor, it's city council, it's transit comission, and it's people want the LRT. Malvern, Missisauga, and some other people in Toronto doesn't want it.

Malvern and Mississauga can cry and petition all they want but it wouldn't mean a single penny worth of a thing. You and those who agree with you can choose to vote out any councillor/mayor who wants to build this project see if the line gets built in the end. My bet is that it will, what do you think?

Also, you need to learn more about maglevs before you speak in a public forum.



<--- my last post on this topic. Those of you who want to stop the progress. Good Luck. But again, when it's built, I'll be waving at you from my brand new LRT. But some of you probably won't see me waving, because you're in Mississauga.

 

[golodhendil]

Yes. Because the cost of station art is the same as digging a tunnel under an urbanized area. Come up with a real plan that includes numbers and backups on how to make this work and I'll believe you. Otherwise you need to answer my question on where this money will come from before you start talking. Numbers.... otherwise shhhh... understand?

Toronto is paying 1/3 of the cost. Marlvern isn't. Toronto, it's mayor, it's city council, it's transit comission, and it's people want the LRT. Malvern, Missisauga, and some other people in Toronto doesn't want it.

Malvern and Mississauga can cry and petition all they want but it wouldn't mean a single penny worth of a thing. You and those who agree with you can choose to vote out any councillor/mayor who wants to build this project see if the line gets built in the end. My bet is that it will, what do you think?

Also, you need to learn more about maglevs before you speak in a public forum.


<--- my last post on this topic. Those of you who want to stop the progress. Good Luck. But again, when it's built, I'll be waving at you from my brand new LRT. But some of you probably won't see me waving, because you're in Mississauga.

Whether "extravagant stations" only mean more station art is pretty obvious from this and multiple other threads in this forum. It's also interesting to learn that Malvernites are somehow no longer considered Torontonians and their opinion on a transit project that both affects them and costs them money is worthless. As for maglevs, I will give you that as in my haste I forgot about HSSTs and the other urban maglevs. However, looking at the current implementations of urban maglev it still would not be something worth petitioning for, and it's hardly a cost issue (Linimo only cost ~$100M/km, without TTC-ified cost inflation).

When this disaster is completed, we will be sure to look out for some crazy guys frantically waving out to pedestrians while our bikes/cars speed past a chain of backed-up LRVs. And also, you need to learn about basic decency and respect for others before you speak in a public forum.

Convince me and the world that you're right.

I would have paraphrased something Barney Frank recently said in MA, but I will refrain.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No comment on the first part of your post.

As for the second part. Is that your opinion? Or do you actually have some real data to back this up? Because the TTC have real data and cases to backup their claim. I'm with the TTC.

Convince me and the world that you're right.

Why not comment on the first part? You claimed you're paying for the line and you're dismissing other people that are also paying for the line yet will actually use it. It's not your city. Are you even aware that Malvern is a neighbourhood in Toronto?

As for the quality of service, go take a glance at the EA and read between the lines instead of just paying attention to the press releases. Using numbers provided by the TTC, the service won't be any better than what the existing buses do and can do while saving an entire billion dollars of capital expenditures. The vehicles won't be any faster than what the bus currently does in the east and whatever minutes might be gained in the west are given right back in reduced frequencies and reduced stops. The model has vehicles stopping at red lights even with signal priority.

Perhaps average real travel times from somewhere in Malvern to somewhere in North York will be reduced by a staggering two or three minutes along a 30-40 minute trip...is that worth a billion dollars? Will it do anything even remotely tangible to get drivers out of their car or stimulate a slew of new condos or shift riders from Finch or Ellesmere? Absolutely not, no matter how many times the press releases say everything is so much better with LRT replacing the bus service. There's a dozen other streets with completely dysfunctional bus routes that need immediate assistance...Sheppard is clearly not one of them. The TTC has no case other than "trust us, it'll be awesome."

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ The speed will barely be better than busses, but will probably be negated by the lower frequencies, which will be at around 5 minutes instead of about 1. Subway would provide a much better speed, even to those in Malvern, and would get rid of the transfer at Don Mills.

EDIT: I totally agree with the above post.

 

[kEiThZ]

Hang on ... how does a subway help Malvern? The closest station would be Kennedy/Sheppard (or perhaps the Agincourt GO) ... or Scarborough Town Centre. With Transit City they are getting a grade-separated extension of the SRT right to Malvern Town Centre.

It is the combination of the SRT extension and a subway that would help Malvern. The SELRT is not needed. I have not challenged the need for an extension of the SRT to Malvern. Some will disagree with me, but I see it as necessary to improve service for the community. However, the SRT extension is not part of Transit City (though it's being lumped in these days). And it would have been needed with or without Transit City.

What I am opposed to the blinders that people have on about the waste of money that is the SELRT and the ART Mk II for a SRT replacement/extension. They are deploying LRT on Sheppard where a subway would make sense and deploying heavy rail ART Mk IIs on the SRT extension to Malvern where LRT would make sense. Why can't they just extend Bloor-Danforth line to Scarborough Town Centre and run LRT to Malvern? That would help out so much more than ART Mk IIs that they are planning on running. Similarly, the Sheppard corridor would be better off with subways and bus lanes.

 

[kEiThZ]

I grow up on Leslie and I still live there. And infact I'm paying for development of all these transit improvements as well as operations through my property taxes and higher license plate sticker prices.

To have someone who lives in Malvern, or Mississauga, to come in and tell me that I outta drop my current transit plans to opt for something 15 times more expansive, that I have to pay for, just so that they can have the convinence to use the transit at a operating cost that I subsidize, now that's unfair.

If Mississauga and/or Malvern and/or York would like to chip in and pay for the extra cost of converting it into a subway. Then be my guest and I'll treat you dinner. But that's not likely going to happen is it? Infact, non of the warriors who are yelling and banging for this petition are coming forward to provide a fiscally possible plan to pay for this extra cost. So why are we talking about this?

In a world with unlimited funds, ofcourse we'd all go for a subway. Infact, if that were the case, I'd petition for a maglev. But we don't live in such world, and money, to everybody who is paying it out of their pocket, is very important. And THAT's why we're opting for the LRT. Not because it's better, but because its what we can afford.

1) You obviously don't know where Malvern is.

2) You obviously didn't bother to read the Sheppard East LRT EA which on page C-10 in section 8.4 states that the planners expect average speeds for the LRT to be around 22-23 kph with a stop spacing of 400-500 m, compared to 17 kph for the 85 Sheppard East bus today and 30 kph for the Bloor-Danforth line. We are paying nearly a billion dollars to add the speed of brisk walk (5-6 kph) to the existing bus service. Scarberian has already drawn out what this means in reality so I won't repeat it. Key points to note are that LRT and buses are almost equal in speed in the eastern parts of the line and any time savings west of McCowan that come from LRT will be eaten up by reduced headways forcing riders to wait longer for service.

3) What us subway advocates have regularly appealed for is a phased approach. To start with, take the billion dollars and extend the subway to Victoria Park (the most expensive part of construction is crossing the 404 anyway). Couple that with cheap and easy to build bus lanes from at least McCowan to Meadowvale....but if space and funds permit than extend the bus lanes till Vic Park. In phase II, build the subway to Agincourt GO and in phase III end the subway at Scarborough Town Centre. The bus lanes are super cheap to build (few million a km) since there is plenty of land available east of McCowan and would dramatically speed up bus service. If they are built to Vic Park, then they could be converted back into road lanes as the subway is extended.

4) Even though Malvernites are pitching in to the subway, I fully believe that 905ers should have a say as well. Last time I checked their tax dollars go to the same provincial and federal government as any resident of Toronto who lives along Leslie. Why should they not have a say in how their tax dollars are spent?

 

[lead82]

now that would make sense, but would require politicians with vision who understand that travel times are not being addressed with the lrt solution.

 

[Dan416]

What does GO have to do with this? Metrolinx is more than just GO, and in this context, it's Metrolinx that is in charge of transit planning in the GTA. It's THEIR plan and if you want to change the approach, the first step is to get their plan changed. There is no way a subway extension on Sheppard will happen without a change to their plan. Even if the city had the money to build a subway extension all by itself, it's NOT legally allowed to do so. Go read the Metrolinx Act carefully if you don't believe me.

GO and Metrolinx merged. So saying GO Transit should = Metrolinx no? And the reason I said GO was because GO Transit has as much to do with Sheppard East LRT as Metrolinx because GO and Metrolinx are the same thing are they not? But everyone knows GO Transit has nothing to do with the SELRT, just as Metrolinx has nothing to do with it. Metrolinx is a proxy of the government of Ontario. It has no aims or ideas of its own, as its 25-year plan clearly demonstrates. It exists solely to rubber stamp every municipality's plans, as stupid as they are (subway to VCC, e.g., most of Transfer City).

The fact that Internet petitions have these limits is not important. What is important is whether the people you are addressing the petition to will be impressed with an internet petition with no verifiability of names. Arguing the limits of the technology with them will get you nowhere.

All I'm trying to say here is that IF you want to have a successful petition, you may want to look at other options than the current petition site. Online petitions can be workable but they need to have more detail in terms of information captured so that you can hand people a quality list of names.

Funny thing, I'm not allowed to retract my signature according to you, but IT is okay for Darth Vader to sign it. And then you complain about people putting negative comments. On one hand, you say "this is what internet petitions are" and then complain when people operate within the limits of what the software allows them to do.

Internet petitions have these limitations. So do regular petitions. You can't call the petition people and ask for your signature back. Don't be ridiculous.

As you can see from the names signed, most people choose not to fill out even city and postal code, never mind even more information than that. That information is NOT RELEVANT to a petition, and never has been.

It's not my fault people such as yourself aren't taking the petition seriously and are signing multiple times and leaving random comments as if it were some sort of message board. To a person with a petition, what matters are the numbers of signatures, that's it. No one is going to pore over every name, because it simply doesn't matter.