[kEiThZ]

Not unreasonable ... but not happening. It's too late. But even subway to Agincourt would be about $1.5 billion. I don't see any point worrying about these fantasy plans. Is Sheppard East where I would have started ... no. Is there any point fighting it? No.

Given that their starting in the East, I still believe that they are leaving some room for discussion here. And I am hoping that a change of mayor might bring some rationality in to this discussion. Beyond that, cost issues are not necessarily insurmountable now that Metrolinx is up and running. If the business case is there for it, I believe that they would support an extension to Agincourt at minimum. Second to STC, Agincourt is a great logical terminus for subway and LRT or BRT.

True ... with the design the way it is now, it would likely make more sense to cut back the LRT to Victoria Park, and build subway at Consumers Drive. But that's a debate for 2030.

The TTC ruled that out because of the cost of taking the subway across the 404 and because of the large amount of riders from the east actually terminating at Don Mills. The only way an extension is going to happen, I think, is if it goes to a much more logical terminus like Agincourt.

If you only have subway stops at Victoria Park and Agincourt, then you'd still have significant local demand.

Which a bus service could easily handle. Yonge seems to do fine with a bus service. I am sure Sheppard East could survive with half the service it has today if there's a subway in place.

 

[Dan416]

People who think that Sheppard East LRT is set in stone and unchangeable are either deluded or ignorant. Nothing is certain in terms of transit, especially in these times. I keep bringing up the Eglinton subway. If plans couldn't change, then where is our Eglinton West subway, exactly? Where is it, nfitz?

 

[nfitz]

People who think that Sheppard East LRT is set in stone and unchangeable are either deluded or ignorant. Nothing is certain in terms of transit, especially in these times. I keep bringing up the Eglinton subway. If plans couldn't change, then where is our Eglinton West subway, exactly? Where is it, nfitz?

The Eglinton West subway didn't have a signed agreement among 3 levels of government. I fully agree that the 100% Ontario-funded projects such as Finch West, and the Eglinton RT could be 100% at risk of there was a sudden change of Ontario government, or Mayor.

It also didn't have tunelling contracts already awarded. The only contract awarded AFAIK was the relocation of utilities at Eglinton West station.

 

[waterloowarrior]

You'll create a situation exactly like Ottawa when the incoming mayor cancelled the $780-million O-Train extension after the 2006 election in favour of other schemes. Contracts had already been awarded and completion was scheduled for fall 2009. Well it's fall 2009 now, and the city has paid out $70-million on the project, may still have to pay out up to another $200-million in damages to the contractor. And the other options? Despite money falling out of the sky recently for Ontario transit, virtually none of it has landed on Ottawa. 3 years later they have a new plan, but they are only talking of starting construction in another 3 years ... with the first $3.2-billion phase not opening until 2017. But that's still hugely tentative ... a change in mayor in 2010 could easily destroy that plan as well. And this new plan? Phase 1 sounds identical to what they were talking about when I lived in Ottawa in the 1980s!

For Ottawa, word is that they may settle for about $37 million.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/City+offer+million+settle+light+rail+lawsuit/1977207/story.html

Some would say the cancellation has resulted in a much better plan, with the downtown tunnel and an EW line that begins to address the overcapacity of the BRT system. Even the TTC said that Ottawa should be building Metro over LRT. The north south line is still getting built, it just will share the underground tracks in the tunnel and not go as far into the suburbs (the Barrhaven to Riverside South connection will be BRT), so the $70 million ($54 mil according to the article above) for land, engineering, etc hasn't gone to waste compeletly.

Edit: Not that it wasn't incredibly dumb to award a contract, then cancel it, waste many years and tens of millions of dollars, and end up deciding to build more or less the same line.... Sheppard hasn't reached that stage yet, so there is still time for a rethink.

 

[nfitz]

... Sheppard hasn't reached that stage yet, so there is still time for a rethink.

Sheppard isn't being built in an extremly dense bus corridor. In downtown Ottawa the buses are so thick, that's it's hard to fit them all on the street. When I commuted down the transitway in downtown Ottawa in the 1980s, it was much, much thicker then than Sheppard was when I commuted down it from Yonge to Leslie in the 1990s. And Sheppard east of Don Mills was never as heavy as to the west.

Hey, if Ottawa get's it right this time, then by 2019 or so they might have what they need. But that's what they were saying in the 1980s. I'll believe it when they start tunnelling. In the meantime, they still need a few $billion ... but I know there's some here who that that money should go to Toronto instead, because Sheppard is more important than downtown Ottawa, the DRL, or the Yonge extension.

 

[GenerationW]

Something I don't get: Why did Harper and the Cons fund the SELRT in the first place? What's in it for them, and why appear to go altruistic by helping left-wing Toronto pols (hardly a part of their constituency) get their transit vision off the ground?

Or to be completely cynical, how does this help the Cons win seats in Toronto?

 

[kEiThZ]

Sheppard is not more important than the DRL, the Ottawa LRT project, etc. However, a Sheppard subway is much better than a Morningside LRT for example. It's petty and disingenuous to suggest that anyone who wants a subway on Sheppard does not think the other projects are priorities. There's enough money in Scarborough to build the extension. But even just adding bus lanes on Sheppard East instead of a subway or LRT would be acceptable. It's the elevation of LRT to an ideology that bothers me. It's lead to such spiteful decisions as cutting off Sheppard at the knees.

 

[Fresh Start]

How much is the amount of the contract rewarded? At this point, it may well be worth to break the contract than to give credence to such a poorly thought-out and executed proposal. Giving that conditions stipulated in the agreement were to construct a tunnel beneath the 404 and not what said tunnel is to be used for, we technically could still honour the contract but go ahead with subway expansion instead of LRT.

Subway + BRT (+ regional rail) for northeast Scarborough will provide better quality service than a smorgasbord of new road median through mixed traffic LRT lines for roughly the same expenditure. That fact needs to be at the forefront of our preoccupation

 

[kEiThZ]

Sheppard isn't being built in an extremly dense bus corridor. In downtown Ottawa the buses are so thick, that's it's hard to fit them all on the street. When I commuted down the transitway in downtown Ottawa in the 1980s, it was much, much thicker then than Sheppard was when I commuted down it from Yonge to Leslie in the 1990s. And Sheppard east of Don Mills was never as heavy as to the west.

Despite that observation, you consider Sheppard appropriate for LRT? Why not BRT then? If Ottawa can build a city wide transit system that shuttles people around a massive urban area in under 40-60 mins to just about anywhere, why would BRT be considered inferior for Sheppard?

Yes, Ottawa has grown since then and now obviously needs some kind of rail. Interestingly enough the ridership projections for 10-12k pphpd prompted the TTC to suggest a heavy rail subway (and so did one of the manufacturers they had there on industry day) not LRT. Also interesting is that the last plan essentially had Transit City style at-grade LRT running through downtown Ottawa. It was largely described as flawed by city staff and city council. So Ottawa went back to the drawing board. They've now come up with a newer, more effective plan that includes full grade separation. They plan on wrapping up the EA in Jan 2010. They have already started scouting for a yard as well. And are working on funding commitments from the province and the feds (with both political parties at that level). From what I've seen, I feel confident that they will get something up and running in 7-8 years. That's no small feat for a city that's never built a transit line (the O-Train was fairly minimal effort) and one that could incorporate more advanced features than Toronto (they are talking about automated operation (ATO/ATC) already).

 

[Ansem]

Great network are built by planners thinking outside of the box and using common sense...

How many subway lines would not exist if ridership alone was the only criteria?

I can say for Montreal, that the blue line would not exist.
Ridership? not at first but overtime it was a good investment and it was well managed.

I never understood why the Sheppard Line was open that late to begin with...I mean 2 am???for a train when you have a night bus on Sheppard east? Talk about wasting money...

The blue line in Mtl attracted new investments, business along the line and redirected many bus line and commuters to the line increasing its ridership.



Sheppard East problems:

-Too freakin slow.

-Stoping at red lights and allowing left turns at every intersections unlike Eglinton

-Not going to STC, meaning an extra transfer.

A subway would offer that other solution:
If the subway went to Downsview, many commuter from the east would just continue to downsview instead of taking the yonge and then go South...

 

[nfitz]

Despite that observation, you consider Sheppard appropriate for LRT? Why not BRT then? If Ottawa can build a city wide transit system that shuttles people around a massive urban area in under 40-60 mins to just about anywhere, why would BRT be considered inferior for Sheppard?

1, Ottawa is a lot smaller; 2, their BRT is more like the Mississauga BRT, than the Kingston Road BRT. You can't build that down Sheppard; 3, their BRT doesn't create avenues. 4: Kingston Road-style BRT would likely have worked east of Victoria Park, and I'd be have been quite happy to see it, combined with a modest subway extension. But why debate the past?

The Feds have just announced a $55-billion deficit, and Flaherty has announced that there will be budget cuts, and people won't like it. I can't see them funding any new projects ... meaning Ottawa is likely too late and out of luck. And if somehow this project ended back on the table, I can't see there still being money for it. In this economy, it's this or nothing for another decade or three.

 

[kEiThZ]

1, Ottawa is a lot smaller; 2, their BRT is more like the Mississauga BRT, than the Kingston Road BRT. You can't build that down Sheppard; 3, their BRT doesn't create avenues. 4: Kingston Road-style BRT would likely have worked east of Victoria Park, and I'd be have been quite happy to see it, combined with a modest subway extension. But why debate the past?

The Feds have just announced a $55-billion deficit, and Flaherty has announced that there will be budget cuts, and people won't like it. I can't see them funding any new projects ... meaning Ottawa is likely too late and out of luck. And if somehow this project ended back on the table, I can't see there still being money for it. In this economy, it's this or nothing for another decade or three.

1. Ottawa is significantly larger in area than Toronto. Look it up.

2. Concur. But significant portions of Ottawa are in at-grade partially segregated right-of-ways (like downtown or in Orleans) and they seem to do fine. There's no reason they can't work as easily on Sheppard. If BRT Ottawa can succeed in getting commuters into and through downtown in Ottawa using what are essentially glorified diamond lanes, there is absolutely no reason the same could not work on Sheppard which has far less traffic and far less development along it.

3. The Sheppard East LRT isn't going to create any avenues either. There's been no accompanying zoning changes to do that. And if you ever driven along Sheppard between Markham and Meadowvale, you know that most of the backyards of single family homes backing onto Sheppard, don't lend themselves to avenuization so easily.

4. Kingston Road BRT would be ideal east of Agincourt, in my opinion. West of Agincourt, it would work, albeit not as effectively. As for debating it, I don't there's any harm in advocating for the ideas you believe in. I am in the midst of writing a letter right now to Smitherman to urge him to run for mayor and to push for a re-evaluation of some of the Transit City plans (you can guess which ones I am referring to).

5. So what if the Feds have a deficit. Toronto built the Sheppard line without a dime during the crazy deficit years of the 90s....and relatively speaking those years were significantly more challenging than what we face today. Given that Ottawa's Transitway is bursting at the seams and will become unsustainable in the near future, higher levels of government will be forced to invest in its rail transit plans or risk having embarrassingly poor transit in the national capital. Besides which, the federal committment to just the rail conversion (which is a fraction of the 5 billion dollar transit plan...something people often get confused) is significant but nowhere near an expensive line item for the feds. Their commitment to the Ottawa light rail would be less than what they contributed to a single LRT line in Toronto. Keeping that in mind, any party that refuses to fund that project will pay a terrible electoral price in Ottawa, at both the federal and provincial level.

 

[nfitz]

1. Ottawa is significantly larger in area than Toronto.

Good grief ... only if you include the acres and acres of farmland within city limits, and include the urban area in Toronto outside of city limits. Don't be silly; the urban area of Ottawa is significantly smaller than Toronto. Even on starting on Sheppard, Morningside to Pearson is 40 km ... and your still a long way from Pickering in the east, and Mississauga Road in the west. The same distance in Ottawa gets you from the eastern edge of Orleans to Kanata Town Centre ... and you've passed through the Green Belt twice. North to south, it's 22 km from Queens Quay station up Yonge to the proposed Highway 7 subway station ... and your still 26 km from the edge of the urban area in Newmarket. 22 km from the river in Ottawa gets you to Manotick. Manotick!!

Honestly, with such absurd out-of-context statements, how is anyone to take you seriously!

 

[kEiThZ]

Good grief ... only if you include the acres and acres of farmland within city limits, and include the urban area in Toronto outside of city limits. Don't be silly; the urban area of Ottawa is significantly smaller than Toronto. Even on starting on Sheppard, Morningside to Pearson is 40 km ... and your still a long way from Pickering in the east, and Mississauga Road in the west. The same distance in Ottawa gets you from the eastern edge of Orleans to Kanata Town Centre ... and you've passed through the Green Belt twice. North to south, it's 22 km from Queens Quay station up Yonge to the proposed Highway 7 subway station ... and your still 26 km from the edge of the urban area in Newmarket. 22 km from the river in Ottawa gets you to Manotick. Manotick!!

Honestly, with such absurd out-of-context statements, how is anyone to take you seriously!

If we are talking the area serviced by transit and particularly rapid transit, Ottawa's geographical footprint is indeed quite large....particularly given all the recent Transitway extensions. OC transpo serves an area (with rapid transit) that's pretty close in size or bigger to the 416. Coming back to my original argument, my point was that they accomplish this rapid transit coverage using buses very effectively. So why can't it work on Sheppard?

Set aside our debate about geographic size. The Ottawa Transitway, through the core areas of Ottawa, most certainly puts through significantly more passengers per hour than the Sheppard East LRT could ever hope to have. And it does that using buses...half of which aren't even articulated. If Ottawa can do this for the whole city, why can't the TTC do it for one 15 km stretch of suburban road with half the demand (or less) that Ottawa faces?

ps. Feel free to respond to the other more substantive points I made if you want to get beyond debating semantics.

 

[Second_in_pie]

If we are talking the area serviced by transit and particularly rapid transit, Ottawa's geographical footprint is indeed quite large....particularly given all the recent Transitway extensions. OC transpo serves an area (with rapid transit) that's pretty close in size or bigger to the 416. Coming back to my original argument, my point was that they accomplish this rapid transit coverage using buses very effectively. So why can't it work on Sheppard?

Yeah, but when you consider that the Downsview-STC Sheppard corridor contains a population close to Ottawa itself, it kind of changes things.

Busses can provide rapid transit, that's been proven in Ottawa and Curitiba. BRT can be an effective higher-order transit, and Curitiba has definitely proven they know how to do TC-style BRT properly, which is not as a RT route, but as a mass of high-ridership routes in key corridors. Ottawa does it differently, in a way very similar to a metro in that it funnels a large number of riders onto one route.
But to be frank, Ottawa's Transitway isn't doing so well. I would definitely not say that it's doing it "very effectively" at all. Some part desperately needs to be upgraded, and I think the central portion definitely needs to be subway to function properly. Not to mention, Ottawa's transitway runs in it's own fully-separated ROW. It's basically a metro without rails. No such ROW exists on Sheppard. The only options are at-grade ROW (which will give us the numbers we currently have on Sheppard,) or tunneling.