[gweed123]

I agree with your approach. Buy train sets that are capable of 300 km/h+, and then upgrade sections of the line as needed, or in coordination with another project. For example, I'm really hoping that when the Lakeshore corridor is electrified for GO, that they make the necessary electrical upgrades to be able to handle HSR.

In the eastern section of the Province, I think the same approach will be applied, with most of the mainline being upgraded, but a new corridor being made between either Kingston or Brockville and Ottawa.

 

[nfitz]

Time for something on a broader scope. As I see it, the only way in which we are going to see true electrified 250km/h+ high speed rail west of Toronto is if it is done piecemeal. ...

Why diverge from the existing mainline between Georgetown and Guelph? That's a difficult spot to do anything, with the Niagara Escarpment and all the building limitations that involves. The existing alignment is probably as good as your going to get, and I'd think you'd be on steeper gradients elsewhere.

 

[diminutive]

I’m always kind of bipolar about these kinds of short-haul, regional (100-200km), rail routes.

On one hand, I live in Europe and these routes work wonderfully. People are always awed by the super-fast bullet trains, but the web of frequent regional trains is really arguably more impressive. They’re comfy, quick enough, get you right downtown and are pretty affordable for the most part.

Yet whenever it comes to actually implementing them in Canada I just can’t see the logic, unfortunately. Why would I want to go to London? Why would someone from London want to go downtown?

Whenever GO starts serving these outer-regional travel markets, Toronto-Barrie or Toronto-Guelph, the demand hardly ever justifies more than a couple of buses per day, let alone a train. Worse still is the Peterborough boondoggle. Maybe a small DMU would work, but then why not just go for buses? Buses may well be better since they could run at slightly higher frequencies, and to more dispersed O-D pairs (e.g. UWO-Union or Guelph-Union).

Lower access times from greater frequencies and more stations would wipe out most time savings a train would enjoy in terms of higher route speeds.

 

[dunkalunk]

Why diverge from the existing mainline between Georgetown and Guelph? That's a difficult spot to do anything, with the Niagara Escarpment and all the building limitations that involves. The existing alignment is probably as good as your going to get, and I'd think you'd be on steeper gradients elsewhere.

You'd diverge the alignment so there would be able to be a dedicated, completely grade-separate high speed section of track.

If the alignment to run any further south, there would be a significant cut or tunnel through the escarpment. In that case I would agree with you. However, there are a number of landscape features that make such an alignment feasible.

Grade crosssings through Acton and Rockwood which would otherwise need separation in the case of a high speed rail line when currently traffic or rail volumes do not make this option economically effective. Also, given the built up areas around the rail line in both Acton and Rockwood, it would be similarly impractical to increase the radius of these curves through these areas to allow 300km/h operation, or to retrofit or replace the existing bridge over the Eramosa River valley at Rockwood.

I've taken a look at the alignment compared to topographic maps of the area. The escarment is much less defined through Acton due to glaciofluvial features carved out of it at the end of the last ice age. From east to west, the alignment climbs the escarpment largely using the southern slopes of the river valley containting Black Creek (of the Credit River) where the line would then cross over the existing Guelph Subdivition. The line would continue to gain elevation by travelling up the southern slope of the Blue Springs Creek. Once on top of the escarpment, two new bridges built to handle high-speed trains would then cross over the Blue Springs and Eramosa River Valleys connecting back with the mainline before entering Guelph.

I encourage anyone interested to take a look at the topographic map viewer provided by the Goverment of Ontario for a high-resolution view of the existing landscape around Acton: http://www.giscoeapp.lrc.gov.on.ca/web/mnr/gib/basedata/viewer/viewer.html High speed rail lines have been built if far more challenging topographically challenging and densely settled areas.

 

[nfitz]

High speed rail lines have been built if far more challenging topographically challenging and densely settled areas.

Perhaps, but I doubt you'd ever get planning permission to divert from the current entry through the escarpment, and it would be far easier to just grade seperate through Acton and Rockwood. There's not that many crossings in either. Nothing compared to the issues through Guelph!

 

[Southcore]

Figured this would be the best thread to put this in, Global News made a little DIY fantasy subway interactive site, including how much it would cost. I'm sure some of the more informed transit guys in this forum can scrutinize the accuracy of some of the costs associated, but is was fun to play around with nonetheless:

http://globalnews.ca/news/925337/interactive-toronto-transit-choose-your-better-way/

Really puts the cost of subway vs LRT debate in perspective

 

[diminutive]

Figured this would be the best thread to put this in, Global News made a little DIY fantasy subway interactive site, including how much it would cost. I'm sure some of the more informed transit guys in this forum can scrutinize the accuracy of some of the costs associated, but is was fun to play around with nonetheless:

http://globalnews.ca/news/925337/interactive-toronto-transit-choose-your-better-way/

Really puts the cost of subway vs LRT debate in perspective

I don't understand how the TTC is costing a notional 'Lakeshore RT' at 8 billion dollars. Most of the route would be through a plenty wide ROW.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

dimunitive:

Yet whenever it comes to actually implementing them in Canada I just can’t see the logic, unfortunately. Why would I want to go to London? Why would someone from London want to go downtown?

Housing affordability perhaps, with the potential to change development patterns across the region? Not that it is sufficient reason to justify HSR, but it would be interesting to see what impact it would have on mid-sized cities like London.

AoD

 

[diminutive]

dimunitive:



Housing affordability perhaps, with the potential to change development patterns across the region? Not that it is sufficient reason to justify HSR, but it would be interesting to see what impact it would have on mid-sized cities like London.

AoD

Possibly. I'm not sure GTA housing is that unaffordable that people would move 200km away to London for cheaper homes, though.

I seem to recall the last HSR report detailing how HSR would overwhelmingly serve the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal market, with the travel market between mid-sized cities being unimportant.

I think the SNCF in France reached similar conclusions since most of their TGV lines ignore smaller communities, or build stations between midsize communities, to avoid having to plow what amount to super-highways through small towns which don't generate significant ridership.

 

[TOareaFan]

Time for something on a broader scope. As I see it, the only way in which we are going to see true electrified 250km/h+ high speed rail west of Toronto is if it is done piecemeal. The Kitchener line is already on the Metrolinx priority list for electrification. Given the straightness of much of the existing Guelph Subdivision, and the fact that it could be up for purchase in the next few years when GEXR's lease is up for review in 2017, I could see a scenario in which Metrolinx takes over that lease. Doing so would make rail upgrades, electrification, and conversion to EMUs on the north mainline far easier given that the line would be under Metrolinx control. I'd like you to consider the following ultimate setup:

From London to Pearson

From Brampton to Union

The black line is the fully electrified mainline from London to Toronto. Red lines are potential high speed bypass routes and would be built on an as-needed basis as the line gains ridership and grade-separation through smaller towns becomes prohibitive. The teal line is the Pearson rail spur.

The following services would be run on the corridor:

High Speed Rail (Red Stops): Running up to a maximum of 325 km/h based on track geometry. This could be operated by a consortium of private companies under the Government of Ontario, or operated by VIA depending on appetite.
Intercity Rail (Yellow/Red Stops): Former VIA Rail operated by GO transit. By this time, VIA will likely want to divest its intercity service on the North Mainline in favour of running more direct service on the Lakeshore-Brantford corridor
GO Express Regional (Green/Yellow/Red Squares): This service would connect Kitchener to Toronto with a run time of about 1h 15m hitting major stops and transfer nodes along the line primarily during rush hour both inbound and outbound, but could be extended to operate all-day.
GO Local (All stops except Teal): A local service which would be timed to make transfers with the GO express service both inbound and outbound.
Union-Pearson Express (Union-Bloor-Pearson Terminal 1): This would be an actual express service to connect the Airport with Downtown Toronto)
Union-Pearson Local (All Stops): This line would serve the function as a western leg of the DRL (terminated at Dundas West-Bloor) providing a more local, frequent rapid transit-type service with shorter high-floor EMUs compatible with the existing UP Express stations

In terms of timeline, I'd optimistically hope for full buildout by 2045. The local service on the UP right-of-way I can see being looked into following the Pan-Am games. Electrification to Kitchener would probably take until at least 2025 and past Kitchener until 2035. High speed sections would need to wait until a tunnel is built beneath the existing rail corridor for Lakeshore service and for the buildout of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal high speed corridor. The Stratford and Acton bypass tracks would be the last piece and would be built at an even later date.

Not picking on your plan/fantasy but it is just the latest that i have seen that does something like this.....so it is to you and any other people creating similar type plans....why is it when people dream up/design these things they are ok with things like the High Speed line above passing through 3 stations in Brampton but not stopping at any of them. All that dreamed up investment and not having it available in the country's 10th, Ontario's 4th and the GTA's 3rd largest city?....and growing faster than any city in front of them in any of those categories?

I seldom post in this thread and just read it for fun (they are fantasy maps afterall) but it does not seem logical to me to have a major line, with a major investment in it, pass through a city with those characteristics and not pick up or drop off any passengers.

 

[TFC]

On a somewhat related note, will the installation of CTC along the North mainline (particularly Kitchener-Georgetown) improve travel speeds through Guelph? Thanks.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The evolution of the TTC subway map - BlogTO

 

[dunkalunk]

Not picking on your plan/fantasy but it is just the latest that i have seen that does something like this.....so it is to you and any other people creating similar type plans....why is it when people dream up/design these things they are ok with things like the High Speed line above passing through 3 stations in Brampton but not stopping at any of them. All that dreamed up investment and not having it available in the country's 10th, Ontario's 4th and the GTA's 3rd largest city?....and growing faster than any city in front of them in any of those categories?

I seldom post in this thread and just read it for fun (they are fantasy maps afterall) but it does not seem logical to me to have a major line, with a major investment in it, pass through a city with those characteristics and not pick up or drop off any passengers.

You make a good point. I was mostly going off the 1995 high speed rail study alignment, although keeping it closer to the Guelph Subdivision instead of blazing a new alignment along the 407/401. (this corridor needs to be preserved for a CN freight bypass track to allow for more frequent passenger operation).

The main issue I see here is that you have two competing and different nodes; the urban core of Downtown Brampton or a major transfer and parking node by Woodbine for Pearson Airport and the eastern and northern GTA. Both are important, but they are only 14km apart. Limited space for track expansion through Downtown Brampton may necessitate a stop here regardless.

If there were to be an additional regular stop on the High-Speed line, I would imagine the corridor would look more like this:

The Pearson Stop would be relocated to Highway 27 to take advantage of the UP express to access Pearson, Better highway access than Malton, and to provide more direct connections to Humber and Renforth gateway via a Brown's Line BRT.

 

[Patdouville]

I tried doing a fantasy map. I think you need a google account to see it in the mapsengine.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zYs_BmoRwT5A.koUj2Q8MtXo4

I wonder if it would be possible/desirable to interline the Sheppard subway with the Yonge line. Could it increase the frequency south of Sheppard station assuming some trains go north and others go east at Sheppard? I'm struggling to make the existing Sheppard line fit in the system.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Anything is possible. It doesn't mean it's a good idea.

As of right now, the Sheppard Subway uses 4 car trains (the rest of the system uses 6) at a ~7 minute frequencies. The ridership demands on the line are in the ballpark of 4,000 people per hour per direction (pphpd). This low requires a subsidy from taxpayers of about $8 per trip

The Yonge subway uses six car trains at approximately 90 second frequencies once automatic train control is installed. In 2031, the ridership demands on this line will be over 40,000 pphd.

I hope you can see the issue with this idea now. There would me more trains on Sheppard than are actually needed. And of course this would lead to an even larger subsidy needed to be paid by taxpayers to operate the line.

The other issue is that this would add at least 15 mins on the commute of passengers 30,000 - 40,000 pphpd who take the Yonge subway past Sheppard-Yonge.