[EnviroTO]

Given the TTC's track record your "dream" subway would be done within your grandchildren's lifetime.

I realize that. The timeline shown had two subway system extensions a length similar to the Sheppard Line or the cancelled Eglinton West to Weston line every five years and it still takes until 2060 to built it. Knowing how unlikely it is to have that money available over the next 50 years considering the past 25 years is the reason I am a supporter of Transit City.

We need what Transit City delivers now and not in 50 years. Transit which is green by being electric, has the capacity to handle intensified land uses, accessibility, and reliability by having its own lanes. It isn't a subway but it enables the city to grow, increases the number of people using transit which leads to greater political support for transit and bigger budgets, and will become what drives future subway extensions ahead.

A good transit plan will outline where subway is expected in the future AND deliver transit enhancements on those routes today. The desire for a freeway in the future shouldn't get in the way of creating an arterial road today.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Overground however is heavy rail; and doesn't go downtown. SRT surely is comparable more to the DLR.

If that stretch of already existing track is not worth converting to heavy rail then it should at least have a light rail car that's more than long enough, and go downtown.

It can even go underground under Queen St. too after it passes the DRL so that street too would get rapid transit.

 

[Dan416]

I realize that. The timeline shown had two subway system extensions a length similar to the Sheppard Line or the cancelled Eglinton West to Weston line every five years and it still takes until 2060 to built it. Knowing how unlikely it is to have that money available over the next 50 years considering the past 25 years is the reason I am a supporter of Transit City.

We need what Transit City delivers now and not in 50 years. Transit which is green by being electric, has the capacity to handle intensified land uses, accessibility, and reliability by having its own lanes. It isn't a subway but it enables the city to grow, increases the number of people using transit which leads to greater political support for transit and bigger budgets, and will become what drives future subway extensions ahead.

A good transit plan will outline where subway is expected in the future AND deliver transit enhancements on those routes today. The desire for a freeway in the future shouldn't get in the way of creating an arterial road today.

In theory I might agree with you, but I want to see new subways now, not when I'm dead.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

We need what Transit City delivers now and not in 50 years.

Given how expensive and impractical the plan is, 50 years may not be enough to deliver it all. We need a serious transit plan...that's not what Transit City is.

 

[MisterF]

Started this a long time ago. The LRT lines would be like the Calgary LRT but with more frequent stops - and never stopping at red lights. GO lines electrified and upgraded to high frequencies with local and express trains. Basically the subway and LRT would provide rapid transit where there are no rail corridors, and the regional rail lines would provide it where there are rail corridors.

 

[Dan416]

Given how expensive and impractical the plan is, 50 years may not be enough to deliver it all. We need a serious transit plan...that's not what Transit City is.

I wish you'd join SOS so you could give your input in the group discussion we've been having. I did send you an invite around the time I formed the group.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I wish you'd join SOS so you could give your input in the group discussion we've been having. I did send you an invite around the time I formed the group.

I'm not really interested in discussing 15 BRT lines to Malvern.

 

[Dan416]

I'm not really interested in discussing 15 BRT lines to Malvern.

oh so you know how out-of-hand things have gotten.

Was hoping to have you join and be a voice of reason. I've tried to focus the group on two priority projects: finishing the Sheppard line to STC and extending Danforth to STC. But I guess what they say about cooks in the kitchen is right.

 

[kEiThZ]

There's now only one BRT line up Neilson to Malvern. Nothing else. It's an iterative process. Give it a chance.

 

[GraphicMatt]

You guys should break off and start SaveOurSaveOurSubways.

 

[kEiThZ]

oh so you know how out-of-hand things have gotten.

Was hoping to have you join and be a voice of reason. I've tried to focus the group on two priority projects: finishing the Sheppard line to STC and extending Danforth to STC. But I guess what they say about cooks in the kitchen is right.

CC,

The problem is that you can't just have those two subways on a map unless you are just campaigning for Scarborough. Remember that my original suggestion was to keep it a strictly Scarborough focused campaign (Scarborough wants subways!). But once it was expanded to a whole bunch of lines, then it required us to look at the city as a whole. The maps still has tons of focus on cross-town travel. It has a lot less transfers than Transit City. And it's reasonable cost wise. It'll be out in the thread in a day or two and we'll see the public feedback.

But I do resent this idea that we're sending a bazillion lines to Malvern when it's one BRT that's a few km long. Like it or not Malvern needs some service. You cant throw out map with only subway lines and nothing else. The average person will vote for TC every time over that (in no small part because the TC maps almost leads you to think the LRTs are light subways).

As for Scarberian, the offer stands. He can help out or sit on the sidelines and coach from an armchair. I am no expert at this but I'd rather do my best to help my community that cast rocks against those that are doing their best.

 

[Dan416]

I don't agree that the average person will take a bunch of TC lines over subway. I think focussing on our subway network is the most important thing. That's why it's called SaveOurSubways. Saving Sheppard and Danforth is my top priority, not stringing LRT lines to the far reaches of Scarborough. Given unlimited money, sure. But we don't have unlimited money as can clearly be seen. And I'd rather focus on expanding the subway lines we have and bringing them closer to where people live, then get bogged down on the alignment of an LRT replacement for the SRT or debating the benefits of BRT.

keith, I think you've lost perspective and focussed way too much on Scarborough and only Scarborough. The average Torontonian doesn't give two flying squirrels about serving Malvern. STC is at least something of a destination. No one wants to take an LRT to go die in Malvern.

 

[salmonz]

Draft of connecting Urban Growth Centers

So I was thinking how convienent it would be if all the urban centers in the GTHA were all connected. What better than finding the most direct route to each urban center from each urban center?

If Urban Growth Centers are supposed to have high density development, then it would be natural for people to travel between these Urban Growth Centers. Using the existing road and rail infrastructure as a path for future growth plans may not be the smartest idea. This is because our Urban Growth Centers are not neccessarily around highways and the highways that are there are overcapacity and no chance on earth for further expansion.

If you take a look at the map, I drew blue lines from each Urban Growth Centers to the rest of them. You will see that there are similiarities among the blue lines paths. This really begs the question - is the current Metrolinx plan to feed downtown Toronto with more traffic the right plan and makes sense when there's 17!!! Urban Growth Centers.

Without considering current traffic trends, you can see the common paths are:
1. Hamilton to Markham: Downtown Hamilton > Downtown Burlington > Midtown Oakville > Etobicoke Centre > North York Centre > Markham Centre
2. Milton to Oshawa: Downtown Milton > Mississauga Centre > Etobicoke Centre > Yonge-Eglinton Centre > Scarborough Centre > Downtown Pickering > Downtown Oshawa
3. Toronto to Newmarket: Downtown Toronto > Yonge-Eglinton Centre > North York Centre > Richmond Hill/Langstaff Gateway
4. Brampton to Oshawa: Downtown Brampton > Vaughan Corporate Centre > Richmond Hill/Langstaff Gateway > Markham Centre > Downtown Oshawa
5. Toronto Circle: Pearson Airport > Mississauga City Centre > Etobicoke Centre > Downtown Toronto > Yonge-Eglinton Centre > North York Centre > Richmond Hill/Langstaff Gateway > Vaughan Corporate Centre > Pearson
6. Oakville to Newmarket: Midtown Oakville > Mississauga City Centre > Pearson Airport > Vaughan Corporate Centre > Newmarket Centre
7. Brampton/Airport/Oshawa: Downtown Brampton > Pearson Airport > North York Centre > Scarborough Centre > Downtown Pickering > Downtown Oshawa

Here's a look. I haven't decided on a final route map - but hey, this is a start. I would be proud if Metrolinx grew a brain and actually got out of the Downtown Toronto "center of the transit universe" mentality. (There's a reason why the 401 is the busiest highway in North America! Because people ain't going downtown!)

 

[Fresh Start]

^ Um, doesn't GO Transit's bus and train network by and large offer interconnectedness between the GTHA's Urban Growth Centres already? If not yet via a one-seat continuous link, than certainly close to that ideal.

I don't agree that the average person will take a bunch of TC lines over subway. I think focussing on our subway network is the most important thing. That's why it's called SaveOurSubways. Saving Sheppard and Danforth is my top priority, not stringing LRT lines to the far reaches of Scarborough. Given unlimited money, sure. But we don't have unlimited money as can clearly be seen. And I'd rather focus on expanding the subway lines we have and bringing them closer to where people live, then get bogged down on the alignment of an LRT replacement for the SRT or debating the benefits of BRT.

keith, I think you've lost perspective and focussed way too much on Scarborough and only Scarborough. The average Torontonian doesn't give two flying squirrels about serving Malvern. STC is at least something of a destination. No one wants to take an LRT to go die in Malvern.

Pity. Our once diplomatic utopia is turning into dystopia. We need to be concise and utilitarian in our planning here. Scarborough has a declining population, meanwhile Etobicoke and North York are booming. There really is no justification for four LRT lines through areas that won't experience greater than 1750pphpd for a long time. I keep making suggestions that fall on deaf ears but the reality is that all Scarborough needs past the two subway extensions to SCC is a continuous BRT line spanning all of Kingston Road then looping back along Ellesmere to SCC; and a second N-S BRT line that would penetrate Malvern. The SRT would be best down scaled to a BRT corridor to alleviate and compliment the B-D extension as its ridership grows. Elevated busways are cheaper to construct than elevated LRT.

The greatest gift we can deliver to the West End through our advocacy efforts is promoting an Eglinton subway into the airport and a north-south exclusive ROW BRT corridor that'll span all of Etobicoke. The Highway 27 corridor bests achieves this goal.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't agree that the average person will take a bunch of TC lines over subway. I think focussing on our subway network is the most important thing. That's why it's called SaveOurSubways.

Keep in mind that the reception inside the 416 and the ad campaign is far different from the perception outside. TC is almost exclusively aimed at the 416. Do you really think a 416 resident who looks at a TC map that runs a line within 2km of his house is going to say, "Screw it. I want to give that up so that there's a subway 5 km away." That's going to say some convincing. Especially, since the average person doesn't quite get what LRT is and doesn't really know what's good and bad about it. Many think it's more like a subway than a streetcar.

Half the fight here is going to be convincing people that LRT is not subway lite. But after that, you are going to have to offer them something locally. Subway lines 5 km away won't cut it. They'll need faster access than a regular bus to those subways.

But if you want us to drop all the BRT stuff and just have an enhanced subway map then say so and that's what we'll run with. I would want you to explain to me though, how I am supposed to sell that vision to the half of Scarborough that lives east of McCowan or the half of Etobicoke that's west of Jane.

Saving Sheppard and Danforth is my top priority, not stringing LRT lines to the far reaches of Scarborough. Given unlimited money, sure. But we don't have unlimited money as can clearly be seen. And I'd rather focus on expanding the subway lines we have and bringing them closer to where people live, then get bogged down on the alignment of an LRT replacement for the SRT or debating the benefits of BRT.

Debate is part of the process of being in a group. And once we've gone from talking about Scarborough alone then you have to debate the whole city (exactly why I suggested a strictly Scarborough focused campaign initially). We've put those two subways and the BRT network up front as quick wins. The BRTs are cheap and can be built quickly to at least capture some of what's attractive about Transit City. But after that it's all subway. So where have we strayed exactly?

keith, I think you've lost perspective and focussed way too much on Scarborough and only Scarborough. The average Torontonian doesn't give two flying squirrels about serving Malvern. STC is at least something of a destination. No one wants to take an LRT to go die in Malvern.

I strongly disagree that it's been all about Scarborough. There's just a lot less debate on where to put the lines in the west end. There's more consensus on that. But if you think that we've been focused too much on Scarborough, where has the input been about the other regions? Fresh Start and gweed have been the only one who made suggestions about the west end. And while I'd agree that Malvern ain't all that important. Are you suggesting that the stuff on Ellesmere (the hospital and the University for example...and STC itself) aren't all that important either? Especially given Durham region's intention to access STC via Ellesmere? Any service to Malvern has been a by-product of the corridors we've used (Finch crosstown or Progress for Centennial college).


To the rest,

Have you guys even looked at gweed's latest map? Theres no LRT on it And the only BRTs that are there, exist to feed the proposed subway network or facilitate regional travel (like the Ellesmere and Kingston BRTs to Durham). And he's done a decent job on the subway network plan. Let us know in the group where we've gone overboard. I find it odd that I am being criticized for delving into detail. I did suggest a subway only map early on. Everyone got hung up about tackling Sheppard East and worried that we had to have detailed alignments and so that idea fell by the wayside. Like I've said earlier, all you have to do is speak up. Hardly, anybody is posting their ideas in the group where we're actually building the plan. You have no right to complain if you haven't contributed.