[nfitz]

See for yourself - an inflation adjusted database of transit projects, excluding operations, maintenance, and rolling stock, in USD: https://transitcosts.com/projects/

Pay close attention to South Korean, Italian, Spanish, Turkish, and Scandinavian projects - these generally represent global best practice.

Good grief - there's so many mistakes there. Particularly the use of the Consumer Price Index to price inflation. Should use a Construction Price index. There's no indication which projects include operations, and which are just construction. Which ones include rolling stock, and which ones don't. Which ones include land assembly, and which ones don't. And most importantly which ones include financing costs, and which ones don't.

You should time your transfer time when you travel in Europe as they are long as well having to climbing up and down stairs since there are no elevators or escalates in those stations.

That 7 minute walk is a pain, but being underground is not that bad in poor weather compared to the shorter walking distance to/from a bus stop. If you are going from X to y not using transit, not a bad walk for that 7 minute walk.

It's a similar walk from the subway to the GO terminal at Kipling as from Toronto Island airport to the 509 streetcar stop - about 250 metres. A distance many perceive as insurmountable.

If we apply the same principle, we can fix that by building two concrete walls along Eireann Quay with a glass sheet on top of it, and move the entrance to the airport to Bathurst and Queens Quay!

Good news then for the only 5-minute walk from Danforth station to Main Street station! Perhaps we could simply knock it up with some plywood while no one is looking!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This line should either go to Square One or nowhere. Sheway is a waste of money.

 

[drum118]

This line should either go to Square One or nowhere. Sheway is a waste of money.

At this time, better to end the line at the East Mall as neither of those 2 nowhere stops are worth the time and money to built those extensions. Going to Sq One is an money pit.

Given the fact that only 25,000 riders from Mississauga are go to Kipling/Islington these days for all routes, how many riders do you think will be using the subway from Sq One daily as well where do you think stations should be between the East Mall and Sq One?? What do you think the ridership will be for those stations other than no stations at all??

 

[M II A II R II K]

To make a Sherway route more worthwhile it could be extended further to Long Branch to connect with Lakeshore RER.

 

[crs1026]

To make a Sherway route more worthwhile it could be extended further to Long Branch to connect with Lakeshore RER.

What makes this routing useful to anyone? This strikes me as a lines-on-the-napkin idea. Ridership will never be there.

There needs to be a design for north-south higher order transit for Etobicoke, but I don’t see this idea as contributing much to that.

As to the new Kipling terminal…. I still say, extend the subway to Cloverdale, tie in Miway at East Mall, and the Kipling terminal can be the country’s most elegant flea market.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Look at the estimated operating cost per new rider for Sherway - it's over $22 a ride! And that's in 2001 dollars - the Spadina and Yonge north extensions were less than $1.50 a ride.

Now if they get rid of the shopping centre, and put a huge residential node there, the story might be different.

Isn't that (to some extent) the plan though?

 

[Sunnyside]

I went through arguing the Sherway extension whether would be cheap before. I still hold that it is only viable if it is cheap, but likely won’t be. I think we need to look at this a bit more practically. The TTC has no incentive to extend to Sherway; it does not serve the network well unless we redesign parts of it (namely buses, incl. Miway). As such, any extension should be led by CF and other developers in the area. They are the primary beneficiaries, and if it is as cheap as it appears to myself and others to construct, then it should be no big deal. These entities are the only ones that actually care about project affordability as it affects their bottom line- If it can be done cheaply, then it will be. If CF conducts their own study, and it still requires significant tunneling, then I think the case for a Sherway extension is DOA.

Ultimately projects like these are not obvious, as the supposed benefits are not reason enough to extend a transit line for a public entity. At most, it’s a nice-to-have for system users. Other stakeholders need to get involved if they see something we/the transit agencies don’t.

Also worth noting that even if seriously considered by government, we are too busy building transit 30 years overdue to build where it may not be needed for another 30. this would be so low on the priority list that a better project may reach the western catchment first (Streetcar/LRT, GO, OL, etc) on its way to fulfilling some more important network priority. Echo my point that if there is merit, this is small enough in scope for the private entities in play to take it on.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The problem with that new ridership report, like a lot of things that came out of the City's rapid transit department before Metrolinx took over subway planning, was that it made key assumptions to drive a narrative they wanted.

I assume that a Sherway extension with ridership that low made the assumption that all MiWay and GO buses would ignore the extension completely and just keep going to Kipling, meaning that all riders at Sherway would basically just be going to the mall. No wonder it's low ridership.

It of course ignores the fact that moving buses to Honeydale or some other stop on the extension would cut bus travel times significantly and substantially increase ridership on the extension. But of course the City wanted to push a perspective that other projects need priority, so they make that assumption and portray the project as useless.

 

[Northern Light]

The problem with that new ridership report, like a lot of things that came out of the City's rapid transit department before Metrolinx took over subway planning, was that it made key assumptions to drive a narrative they wanted.

I assume that a Sherway extension with ridership that low made the assumption that all MiWay and GO buses would ignore the extension completely and just keep going to Kipling, meaning that all riders at Sherway would basically just be going to the mall. No wonder it's low ridership.

It of course ignores the fact that moving buses to Sherway or some other stop on the extension would cut bus travel times significantly and substantially increase ridership on the extension. But of course the City wanted to push a perspective that other projects need priority, so they make that assumption and portray the project as useless.

Shifting many of those routes to an East Mall/Cloverdale stop makes sense, there are fewer routes for which a Sherway stop would make sense.

The idea that Mx has superior planning is just beyond the pale. I won't defend the TTC's shortcomings, but as Mx delivers projects late and over budget (see Crosstown) and misaligned with demand (see same); this narrative of their superiority must wane.

Edit to add: I'm also very familiar w/problems on the Finch West project, the details of which I will refrain from posting for now, except to say, the project management has been, ummm, problematic

 

[crs1026]

Shifting many of those routes to an East Mall/Cloverdale stop makes sense, there are fewer routes for which a Sherway stop would make sense.

That's part of the issue. West of Sherway, there is very little density, and no prospect that any will be added. So improving connectivity to Sherway from Mississauga is not going to attract much Miway ridership.

There is density planned for Sherway itself, but one should be very careful about how much and whether it will cross the threshold to justify subway level transit. LRT connections to Humber Bay and Line 2 at Cloverdale, plus improvements to Milton GO, may be quite sufficient - and much cheaper.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

There is no reason that if the subway was extended to Dixie and bloor that the whole area couldn’t be redeveloped. Each side of that intersection is run down plazas which have owners begging to flip for profit. A BRT, Go, and subway there would surely attract development and riders. You can build a condo anywhere in this city and people will throw developers.

 

[mildlyamusingusername]

I had an urban economics professor who gave us three reasons why building transit is significantly more expensive in Toronto. Maybe I should dig up some of those slides, I clearly retained none of that knowledge

 

[drum118]

The problem with that new ridership report, like a lot of things that came out of the City's rapid transit department before Metrolinx took over subway planning, was that it made key assumptions to drive a narrative they wanted.

I assume that a Sherway extension with ridership that low made the assumption that all MiWay and GO buses would ignore the extension completely and just keep going to Kipling, meaning that all riders at Sherway would basically just be going to the mall. No wonder it's low ridership.

It of course ignores the fact that moving buses to Honeydale or some other stop on the extension would cut bus travel times significantly and substantially increase ridership on the extension. But of course the City wanted to push a perspective that other projects need priority, so they make that assumption and portray the project as useless.

The Big Move call for the Gateway Terminal to be at Cloverdale and it will save GO Transit, miWay and TTC money yearly by moving everything from Kipling to Cloverdale. It will eliminate a number of buses for everyone with the removal of deadheading to/from Kipling.

Part of the existing Kipling terminal can be use for new developments with ready access to GO and TTC.

When one looks at the proposed developments around Cloverdale and Sherway plan terminals, Cloverdale wins hand down

 

[DirectionNorth]

The problem with that new ridership report, like a lot of things that came out of the City's rapid transit department before Metrolinx took over subway planning, was that it made key assumptions to drive a narrative they wanted.

I assume that a Sherway extension with ridership that low made the assumption that all MiWay and GO buses would ignore the extension completely and just keep going to Kipling, meaning that all riders at Sherway would basically just be going to the mall. No wonder it's low ridership.

It of course ignores the fact that moving buses to Honeydale or some other stop on the extension would cut bus travel times significantly and substantially increase ridership on the extension. But of course the City wanted to push a perspective that other projects need priority, so they make that assumption and portray the project as useless.

That isn't really a ridership gain or a service improvement, unless the time saved going to and from Kipling is very substantial compared to a subway.

That being said, @drum118's point is valid in that it will reduce operational costs. However, we have many lines that desperately need funding, and unless this line can be gotten for cheap, I don't see enough ridership value to place it ahead of Waterfront LRT or Jane LRT (for example).

 

[nfitz]

Isn't that (to some extent) the plan though?

It is. But I was envisioning filling the existing and parking with residential, and maybe even offices (the existing mall and parking can be rebuilt in the podium(s) or underground).

The 2002 study included growth assumptions. I'm not sure how that compares to current plans. It may be enough to turn the worst subway option in the history of the TTC to just a bad option.

(well ... based on demand modelling, the original Line 5 extension from Renfort to Pearson was the worst ever - but the methodology of mostly looking at AM peak ridership is suspect).