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TTC staff to provide update on Green Bus Program at next Board meeting

Dec. 6, 2023

Tomorrow, Thurs., Dec. 7, the TTC Board will receive an update on the organization’s progress on transitioning its fleet to be completely zero emissions by 2040, or sooner.

The report will outline when TTC employees and the public will see more hybrid-electric and all-electric buses across the city and on the road, and how the organization is meeting and exceeding all zero emissions targets.

The TTC is a leader in zero emissions fleet management in North America and is now procuring only hybrid-electric and all-electric buses. As of today, the TTC has 469 of the latest generation hybrid-electric buses, and by the end of 2024, 591 low-emissions hybrids will be deployed to serve customers across the City of Toronto.

The next shipment of zero-emissions eBuses is expected to start arriving in Q2 2024 with all new vehicles delivered by the end of 2025. As with the hybrid-electric buses, these all-electric buses are being manufactured by Nova Bus and New Flyer Industries. The 340 new eBuses will add to the TTC’s existing fleet of 60 and include fixes to issues learned through the head-to-head eBus pilot program.

The TTC has aligned its zero emissions targets with the City of Toronto’s TransformTO Net Zero Strategy. To achieve this, the TTC will need to increase its service, including bus service, by as much as 70 per cent. The TTC will require 1130 additional buses as well as new facilities to house and maintain the vehicles. This portion of the TTC’s transition to net zero emissions remains unfunded as does the capital required to maintain the existing fleet beyond 2025. This shortfall requires a funding commitment by the end of Q1 2024 to ensure the continuity of the TTC’s Green Bus Program.

The TTC will also be presenting an update on its Bus Design Innovation Program to the Board. This innovative and forward-thinking project is just one of the ways the organization is working closely with the Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU) Local 113 and the ATU International to improve the customer experience and provide a more secure and healthy working environment for bus Operators. The project is also in collaboration with Centennial College.

Building on best practices from transit agencies globally, one of the innovations being pursued is the redesign of the barrier that shields a bus Operator’s workspace, greatly reducing the risk of assault and illness, while maintaining a clear view to ensure safe operation of the vehicle.

The TTC was the first in North America to roll out these new full-height shields as a pilot project.

The TTC, ATU Local 113, ATU International, and Centennial College have also begun to investigate a new bus ventilation system. These new designs, along with several others, were recently presented to the U.S. Federal Transit Administration and other North American transit agencies, and have received broad interest and support across the industry.

For more information on the TTC’s upcoming Board agenda, please visit ttc.ca.
 
Again, not specifically TTC, but it looks like BYD has a couple of more customers in Ontario. I'm guessing with government incentives, these are going to be built in Newmarket. That has to be the first work that facility has gotten since the TTC and Quebec orders.

en.byd.com

Electric Cars, Sedans and SUVs I BYD USA

BYD has developed blade battery, electronic platform 3.0 and dual-mode hybrid technology for electric cars, giving full play to the advantages of intelligence, efficiency, safety and beauty brought by electrification to electric cars.
en.byd.com en.byd.com

York University and Attridge Transportation in Ontario recently announced procurement awards for four Dreamer (commercial shuttle) Type D Battery Electric Buses from BYD Canada. Each customer will receive two BYD battery electric vehicles in coming months.

The Government of Canada Incentives for Medium-Heavy-duty Zero-Emission Vehicles (iMHZEV) Program is helping BYD Canada customers to adopt our clean technology. “We are pleased to receive these awards and believe they are the first of many to come.” said Paul Bottrill, BYD Vice President for Public Transit Solutions. “It’s rewarding as this is such a highly competitive market segment that has seen little change in the last half-century.”
 
APTA-2048 said:
Again, not specifically TTC, but it looks like BYD has a couple of more customers in Ontario. I'm guessing with government incentives, these are going to be built in Newmarket. That has to be the first work that facility has gotten since the TTC and Quebec orders.

en.byd.com

Electric Cars, Sedans and SUVs I BYD USA

BYD has developed blade battery, electronic platform 3.0 and dual-mode hybrid technology for electric cars, giving full play to the advantages of intelligence, efficiency, safety and beauty brought by electrification to electric cars.
en.byd.com en.byd.com

York University and Attridge Transportation in Ontario recently announced procurement awards for four Dreamer (commercial shuttle) Type D Battery Electric Buses from BYD Canada. Each customer will receive two BYD battery electric vehicles in coming months.

The Government of Canada Incentives for Medium-Heavy-duty Zero-Emission Vehicles (iMHZEV) Program is helping BYD Canada customers to adopt our clean technology. “We are pleased to receive these awards and believe they are the first of many to come.” said Paul Bottrill, BYD Vice President for Public Transit Solutions. “It’s rewarding as this is such a highly competitive market segment that has seen little change in the last half-century.”
Click to expand...
They should stick to being an OEM manufacturer for propulsion. They would be more successful.
 
Bordercollie said:
They should stick to being an OEM manufacturer for propulsion. They would be more successful.
Click to expand...
The problems with BYD buses in Canada and the US are well documented. It’s a bit harder to find out about issues with their buses overseas. I’m especially curious what the experience is like in Scandinavia as they’ve bought a large number and continue to buy BYD buses. Their climate can be a lot colder than the GTA. It would be interesting to hear how that affects reliability and range.

As for Quebec’s buses I mentioned above, their 30-foot BYD K7Ms have been pretty terrible. The ones in Longueuil barely make it out and the ones in Montreal never entered service. I had thought the order was canceled until a friend sent photos of them literally collecting dust in a garage.
 
APTA-2048 said:
The problems with BYD buses in Canada and the US are well documented. It’s a bit harder to find out about issues with their buses overseas. I’m especially curious what the experience is like in Scandinavia as they’ve bought a large number and continue to buy BYD buses. Their climate can be a lot colder than the GTA. It would be interesting to hear how that affects reliability and range.

As for Quebec’s buses I mentioned above, their 30-foot BYD K7Ms have been pretty terrible. The ones in Longueuil barely make it out and the ones in Montreal never entered service. I had thought the order was canceled until a friend sent photos of them literally collecting dust in a garage.
Click to expand...
You would think that it wouldn't be that hard considering that a lot of the parts such as the suspension is off the shelf.

I would presume that the problems are with software more than anything.

The one I rode on was ready to fall apart, but the powertrain was very smooth.
 
Bordercollie said:
You would think that it wouldn't be that hard considering that a lot of the parts such as the suspension is off the shelf.

I would presume that the problems are with software more than anything.

The one I rode on was ready to fall apart, but the powertrain was very smooth.
Click to expand...
So far I haven’t found out what specific issues have been occurring with the BYD buses. Could be software issues. But a lot of the high profile cases mention problems with the batteries. Especially with range not meeting expectations. Though that’s not unique to BYD. TTC have gone through a few retrofits now including replacing the batteries due to a “persistent battery fault”. The BYDs in St Albert, Alberta have also had their batteries replaced recently.
 
APTA-2048 said:
So far I haven’t found out what specific issues have been occurring with the BYD buses. Could be software issues. But a lot of the high profile cases mention problems with the batteries. Especially with range not meeting expectations. Though that’s not unique to BYD. TTC have gone through a few retrofits now including replacing the batteries due to a “persistent battery fault”. The BYDs in St Albert, Alberta have also had their batteries replaced recently.
Click to expand...
Isn't this the company that sold the most busses in China? That should be the one thing they can get right. And why spend so much money building a facility in Canada if their tech is crap? Makes no sense.
 
APTA-2048 said:
So far I haven’t found out what specific issues have been occurring with the BYD buses. Could be software issues. But a lot of the high profile cases mention problems with the batteries. Especially with range not meeting expectations. Though that’s not unique to BYD. TTC have gone through a few retrofits now including replacing the batteries due to a “persistent battery fault”. The BYDs in St Albert, Alberta have also had their batteries replaced recently.
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I don't think that it was software issues with the TTC's BYDs, but....

Incorrect software settings and setup can absolutely lead to battery problems with battery-electric vehicles, and the problems can manifest themselves rather quickly depending on what the issues are.

If I remember correctly BYD was using their own proprietary battery (and supplier), and they may have been having more issues with the chemistry than the big traditional suppliers have been.

Dan
 
Originally posted here: https://cptdb.ca/topic/5871-metrolinx-transit-purchasing-initiative/?do=findComment&comment=986803

According to the Timmins Transit document, Nova Bus didn’t bid on Metrolinx’s lates TPI. They also believe, following a meeting at CUTA, that Nova Bus will withdraw from manufacturing diesel buses to focus on electric buses.

This would be following their parent company Volvo’s stance with only producing electric and hybrid versions of their city bus in Europe. However Volvo still has a full portfolio of diesel bus chassis, intercity buses, and tour buses. The electric bus market in Canada also seems much smaller than Europe. So it appears Nova Bus will not be able to compete in a number of procurements. It will be interesting how this would go. Perhaps they’re banking on large electric orders from cities. But they’ll have to be price competitive after New Flyer did better than them with the Metrolinx electric bus TPI.
 
Quebec government at it again, offering up free "loans" to protect one of their beloved companies from closing up shop:

montrealgazette.com

Quebec gives Nova Bus $19M loan despite its job cuts

The forgivable loan through Investissement Québec came just before the bus manufacturer announced it would cut 125 jobs in Plattsburgh.
montrealgazette.com montrealgazette.com

To me it looks like just a matter of time before NovaBus is gone to the wind, but we'll have to see the lengths to which the Quebec governement will go to prop up Nova.
 
Amare said:
Quebec government at it again, offering up free "loans" to protect one of their beloved companies from closing up shop:

montrealgazette.com

Quebec gives Nova Bus $19M loan despite its job cuts

The forgivable loan through Investissement Québec came just before the bus manufacturer announced it would cut 125 jobs in Plattsburgh.
montrealgazette.com montrealgazette.com

To me it looks like just a matter of time before NovaBus is gone to the wind, but we'll have to see the lengths to which the Quebec governement will go to prop up Nova.
Click to expand...
Nova bus has a parent company Volvo which will not let it go out of business. Every company is struggling right now with cashflow. Have you not seen how many companies filed for chapter 11 just in the past 30 days?

Body shop, Bowflex, Peleton, etc
 
Bordercollie said:
Nova bus has a parent company Volvo which will not let it go out of business. Every company is struggling right now with cashflow. Have you not seen how many companies filed for chapter 11 just in the past 30 days?

Body shop, Bowflex, Peleton, etc
Click to expand...
Do you really think Volvo wouldnt let Novabus go out of business? If it means preserving profit and cash flow they'll axe NovaBus and wont even think about it twice. They've greatly reduced their bus manufacturing business in Europe, and they've already withdrawn from the U.S market entirely.

It's more that the Quebec government wont let them go out of business until they've injected enough money into them and see that it wont be enough to save them.

APTA-2048 said:
Again, not related to the TTC, but could become an option if things line up.

Solaris Bus & Coach, a Polish manufacturer, is eyeing the Canadian and American market with battery-electric buses and trolleybuses.

https://fb.watch/qO0YpQbVb8
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Well this would be a very interesting turn of events. If they do expand to the North American market (which is something I hope happens), it will be interesting to see if they can gain significant market share (unlike the various past ventures we've seen from the likes of Alexander Dennis, Van Hool, BYD to name a few).
 
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