TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I wonder why the TTC chose to use trolley polls rather than pantographs with the CLRV/ALRV. I don't see any obviously benefit.
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Tuscani01
Senior Member
Likely cost... as the whole system of overhead wire would have needed to be replaced too.
Nobina
New Member
Especially at a time when there was such a push to get rid of the streetcars altogether. Any added cost to the CLRV order would have been a bad thing. Let's face it, we're lucky to even have the CLRVs.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
The thicker copper gauge wire is more expensive for pantographs.
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Replacing trolley poles with pantographs: It's in the wires...
T and Everyone: To be exact you would have to replace all parts of the overhead wire system that protrude to the level of the trolley
contact wire - which the pole contacts directly - or below that height for a pantograph to have clear contact and not be damaged by
attachments and other parts of the wires that would be in the way of the onrushing pantograph...In short this would require some
parts to be replaced and not the entire wire system...
LI MIKE
T and Everyone: To be exact you would have to replace all parts of the overhead wire system that protrude to the level of the trolley
contact wire - which the pole contacts directly - or below that height for a pantograph to have clear contact and not be damaged by
attachments and other parts of the wires that would be in the way of the onrushing pantograph...In short this would require some
parts to be replaced and not the entire wire system...
LI MIKE
ehlow
Senior Member
I'm not expert so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that it's historical and they just haven't bothered to change/upgrade until now.
Trolley poles were the standard thing back when the streetcar system was being established, now most new vehicles have pantograph, from what I understand.
So, assuming what I've said above is accurate, there was no real choice back then, they used what everyone else used at the time, but modern streetcar lines (Seattle, Portland) would use what most use today which is the pantograph.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Mind that back in the 70s and 80s, pantographs were definitely a thing, so the TTC definitely had a choice. Here's our CLRV 4004 outfitted with a pantograph in Switzerland before it was delivered to us:
ehlow
Senior Member
I mean back about 100 years ago when the streetcar network was being built
johntauren
Active Member
Saw 4401 being tested on College this afternoon.
Still haven't had a chance to ride the new one yet.
The old ones at Spadina station scare me though...there is a large gap between the platform and the front door.
Still haven't had a chance to ride the new one yet.
The old ones at Spadina station scare me though...there is a large gap between the platform and the front door.
ShonTron
Moderator
SEPTA in Philadelphia, which replaced its streetcars at the same time as Toronto's (1980-1983), also opted to go with trolley poles rather than pantographs. Like Toronto, most of Philly's single-end streetcars operate in mixed traffic (with the exception of the Market Street tunnel). Philly also has double-ended trolleys for suburban routes that mostly operated in a right-of-way, these use pantographs (as do post-1970s fleet replacements for San Francisco, Boston and Pittsburgh, which replaced trolley pole equipped PCCs).
DSC
Superstar
.
My initial assumption was that the pantograph was not invented until more recently but I looked at Wikipedia where it says: "A pantograph was invented 1879 by Walter Reichel, chief engineer at Siemens & Halske in Prussia.[1] A flat slide-pantograph was invented in 1895 at the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad[2] The familiar diamond-shaped roller pantograph was invented by John Q. Brown of the Key System shops for their commuter trains which ran between San Francisco and the East Bay section of the San Francisco Bay Area in California.[3][4] They appear in photographs of the first day of service, 26 October 1903.[5] For many decades thereafter, the same diamond shape was used by electric-rail systems around the world and remains in use by some today.
The pantograph was an improvement on the simple trolley pole, which prevailed up to that time, primarily because the pantograph allows an electric-rail vehicle to travel at much higher speeds without losing contact with the overhead lines."
The electric streetcars in Toronto began in 1892 so pantographs were fairly new and untested at that time and would also probably have been seen as a 'foreign invention' and thus not appropriate for Victorian Toronto. After all. London and other cities in Britain used poles! Once one settled on poles it was costly to convert all the overhead and I suspect it may only be being done in Toronto now because the new streetcars actually need a thicker wire as they use more current and if one is changing all the wire one might as well change all the fittings at the same time.
cplchanb
Senior Member
kinda fits the overall Toronto mentality:
Dont do anything until things get too old or too broken
They had the chance to improve on many things other than pantographs which is pretty much an international industry standard for streetcars and trams but failed to act until now which is going to cost so much more because they
had to have Bombardier design a bespoke dual system that uses pole and pantograph.
Long story short TTC RETROacts to many large scale issues in their system.
Dont do anything until things get too old or too broken
They had the chance to improve on many things other than pantographs which is pretty much an international industry standard for streetcars and trams but failed to act until now which is going to cost so much more because they
had to have Bombardier design a bespoke dual system that uses pole and pantograph.
Long story short TTC RETROacts to many large scale issues in their system.
smallspy
Senior Member
A pole costs less than $200 to replace. A pantograph is over $2000 (and approaching $3000 for specialty, high-speed models).
As well, if a pole dewires you simply go back and put it back on the wire. If a pantograph dewires - which does happen from time-to-time, although not frequently - it can destroy itself or bring down the overhead.
Keep in mind that had the SRT been built as a streetcar line as had originally been intended, that we would have had a small, dedicated fleet of CLRVs with pantographs installed to be used on the line.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
pman
Senior Member
When I used to take the TTC regularly, I noticed there was a pretty good chance that when a streetcar made a sharp turn the pole would come off the wire, the streetcar would stop, and the driver would have to get out and re-align it, which I guess is sort of a metaphor for pretty much all of Toronto's mobility infrastructure. Am I correct in believing that the vast majority of the world's streetcar systems use pantographs?
cplchanb
Senior Member
i believe we are one of the few left in the world (at least in the first world) that still uses it on the mainline
Not sure about San Fran or other cities with PCCs.
Not sure about San Fran or other cities with PCCs.