[nfitz]

I'm sorry, but I don't equate being a few months behind schedule on a 15-year contract with "incredible incompetence". I really think this is just TTC flexing its muscles and exercising its built-in option to get a huge discount on the units. They're posturing, so the General Public gets mad at Bombardier, not the TTC. A deflection to save face or hide other issues the TTC is dealing with (customer service...).

A few months behind! They were massively behind a few months ago. A few months later, they are a few months even further behind. The key issue, is that they keep making unrealistic promises, month after month.

If they were only a few months behind (as they are on the subway vehicles), it wouldn't be incredible incompetence. It's the continuing month-after-month blatant lies and deception that's incredibly incompetent.

I'm not sure why you think this particular contractor should be treated differently than others who screw up massively.

All they have to do to get out of this, is to simply do what they have already said they'd do. Start churning out streetcars every 5 days. They've even said they'll go beyond this and catch up on the recent delays, early in the new year. If they are so competent, this should be easy for them.

 

[rbt]

I'm sorry, but I don't equate being a few months behind schedule on a 15-year contract with "incredible incompetence".

Bombardier is well over a year behind on deliveries now.

Remember all the concerns about where we would put 60 LRT due to Leslie being a year delayed? Turns out Bombardier is even more delayed.

 

[Napoleon]

Bombardier is well over a year behind on deliveries now.

And more than double that if you project forward with current delivery rates.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Then why did Bombardier repeatedly claim revised schedules and repeatedly renege on those commitments?

my point was this could happen to any manufacturer, yes Bombardier needs to share some of the blame but I just don't get why people are just so negative about everything. What would have happened if say Semmens had been given the contract and the production facility they planed to build had construction delays and they only sent the same amount would pole be blaming the the same way or would it be maybe we should have gone with someone else?

 

[DSC]

my point was this could happen to any manufacturer, yes Bombardier needs to share some of the blame but I just don't get why people are just so negative about everything.

Who exactly do you think they need to 'share the blame" with? The work at Thunder Bay MAY be perfect and 100% of the problem may be with the Mexican plant but BOTH are Bombardier plants. Bombardier is 100% at fault - firstly for being late with deliveries and secondly for being unable to keep to ANY subsequent delivery schedules. They are 100% responsible for this, no sharing of blame that I can see.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

my point was this could happen to any manufacturer, yes Bombardier needs to share some of the blame but I just don't get why people are just so negative about everything. What would have happened if say Semmens had been given the contract and the production facility they planed to build had construction delays and they only sent the same amount would pole be blaming the the same way or would it be maybe we should have gone with someone else?

I don't think the people are wrongly so negative about everything - at issue is a dramatic failure to deliver, leading to increased cost and inferior services (relative to what was expected, had the new vehicles been available) for the city. That must be rectified with penalties exacted - anything less and you'd wonder why we have contracts in the first place. Whether they are experiencing issues with their suppliers. and how said issues will affect their production is a problem for them to fix within their own contractual arrangements - it does not absolve Bombardier of their responsibilities to the city, which is to deliver the vehicles on time.

Besides, the city was fairly generous in trying to come to some kind of an alternate arrangement with the vendor - only to be disappointed again and again. Certainly we are well past the point of relying on goodwill to get the job done.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

In spite of all the attention BBD is getting in the financial pages for its black-hole air sector, none of the analysts or pundits or media people (outside of the GTA) appear to be drawing much attention to the Toronto debacle. Media people love to pile on in their reporting....and that isn't happening. This makes me wonder if in the scheme of things, the Toronto contract isn't important to BBD's destiny, or its stock price.

If you look at BBD's transportation business world wide, Ontario is a pretty small player. BBD has done so well internationally by buying and assimilating and morphing railcar businesses from all over. We like to think about BBD as a hometown Canadian-centric business, but these days it's multinational with engineering and manufacturing happening wherever the customer happens to be.

It makes one wonder whether Ontario has been paying a premium to retain the manufacturing here, with BBD taking the money but having little interest in it. I doubt Thunder Bay has dibs on BBD's managerial talent.

None of this can be blamed on the Thunder Bay workforce - but - I'm not confident that there is any future for Thunder Bay once the TR's are finished and GO stops ordering bilevels.....this isn't how the industry operates. New product lines move around.

BBD's Mexico plant has a somewhat convoluted history with several past owners (Gunderson, Concarril, etc). BBD's profile there has changed over the years. One does hear grumbles about the quality of the locomotive assembly which is BBD's other big activity down there. Again, if BBD is more interested in chasing business in Asia or Europe, this facility may not have been a priority.

I said earlier, and I was at least half serious - Bombardier is present at trade shows every couple of weeks. We need Toronto officials standing outside the BBD display, wearing red T-shirts with a picture of a Flexity and a TTC logo and the words "Where are our streetcars?". Toronto needs to up the profile of this issue beyond Ontario.

It's also time to shed our loyalty to their brand. It's like a relationship breakup where the other person has already moved out. We need to stop cuddling the sweater they left behind and wondering when they will settle up the unpaid bills. Okay, we prepaid some theatre tickets, but let's just give them away and not go through the pretence of attending the show as a couple. Time to move on.

- Paul

 

[Napoleon]

So has 4412 officially been delivered?

 

[TOareaFan]

So has 4412 officially been delivered?

Byford was too busy drafting the lawsuit to get down there to sign the delivery receipt...so fed ex have shipped it a distribution centre and will hold it there for 10 business days. If not picked up by then they will return to sender.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Byford was too busy drafting the lawsuit to get down there to sign the delivery receipt...so fed ex have shipped it a distribution centre and will hold it there for 10 business days. If not picked up by then they will return to sender.

Unfortunately, the distribution centre is not accessible by transit. Should he get there, they'll demand the "proper" id, which he'll leave at the office.

 

[diminutive]

In spite of all the attention BBD is getting in the financial pages for its black-hole air sector, none of the analysts or pundits or media people (outside of the GTA) appear to be drawing much attention to the Toronto debacle. Media people love to pile on in their reporting....and that isn't happening. This makes me wonder if in the scheme of things, the Toronto contract isn't important to BBD's destiny, or its stock price.

The TTC is seeking 50 (CAD) million in damages. The air sector has contributed to a 5 billion (USD) loss this quarter alone. It's not that surprising that most people are focusing on the latter. Even if BBD has to eat the full 50million they're still getting over a billion in revenue from the TTC contract. That's much better than the C-Series which has nowhere near enough orders.

 

[robmausser]

I'm sorry, but I don't equate being a few months behind schedule on a 15-year contract with "incredible incompetence". I really think this is just TTC flexing its muscles and exercising its built-in option to get a huge discount on the units. They're posturing, so the General Public gets mad at Bombardier, not the TTC. A deflection to save face or hide other issues the TTC is dealing with (customer service...).



Just a quick thank you for a very logical and constructive post. Most people have no idea how manufacturing actually works.

A few months behind. LOL.

We were supposed to get the first streetcars in 2011 according to the contract. That was changed. Then even with that change we should have 68 streetcars right now, according to the renegotiated contract.

They are years, years behind their original commitment.

 

[diminutive]

Bombardier Transportation has a lot of suppliers for different components of the Flexity. Not all major components of the Flexity are made by Bombardier Transportation themselves, for an example the air brakes for the Flexity could be made by Bendix or Wabco. Bearings could be made by numerous suppliers as well, such as Timken, SKF, and etc.

The same could be said for any good. When a firm signs a contract to produce a given good it's assuming all the risk of coordinating subcontractors (unless otherwise stated). That's what manufacturing is, the conversion of input components to finished outputs. It'd be ridiculous to let a company escape liability for breach of contract because it didn't have its supplier ducks-in-a-row

If one of BBD's suppliers breached its contract with BBD then it is on BBD to sue them for the damages, which could include the losses that it incurs from this TTC suit.

In any event, press statements from the firm have laid the blame at faulty work done at their Mexico plant. This doesn't seem to be an issue with one of their suppliers.

 

[wopchop]

Rate we are going, 12 in service by January IS a positive comment - rather than Bombardier suspending delivery in anticipation of litigation.

Suspended delivery in anticipation of litigation would be a huge mark on them and would certainly be used in any claim against them.

 

[W. K. Lis]

To counter negative reports, Bombardier sent out this tweet, see link:

BombardierRail ‏@BombardierRail Oct 28

BombardierRail Retweeted Business Insider

We've contributed to the metro vehicles in Berlin, London and New York, just to name a few!"

BombardierRail added,

​

See Business Insider, at this link.