[Duck]

So wasn't 4416 supposed to be in service by now? Another failure by Bombardier.

It's almost like it's exciting for you to get to hate something so much.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It sounds like 4416 will arrive at the ramp this weekend, so it's only missed the deadline by a couple of days.

Is that the deadline of the original contract, the first revised deadline or the new deadline? If you get to move the deadlines when you're late, they're not really deadlines.

 

[nfitz]

It sounds like 4416 will arrive at the ramp this weekend, so it's only missed the deadline by a couple of days.

Did it though? Flatcar 158091 is reported as released empty at Toronto yard on Tuesday December 29th. (4415 was on flatcar 156393 which arrived back in Thunder Bay yesterday).

If that's correct they managed to deliver 3 in December, and 12 in 2015, with 13 in service by end of 2015 and 15 delivered.

Which is still shy of their most recent promise of 16 in service and 19 delivered by year's end. But does bode well, if they can keep up the recent weekly deliveries.

 

[Napoleon]

Is that the deadline of the original contract, the first revised deadline or the new deadline?

I fixed your sentence for you
Is that the deadline of the original contract, the first revised deadline, the second revised deadline, the third revised deadline, or the new deadline?

Actually, the accelerating schedule is promising. I know they had a few cars building up because of the wire crimping issue, so I'm hoping this is not just a temporary burst but a new sustained pace. Cautiously optimistic.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Actually, the accelerating schedule is promising. I know they had a few cars building up because of the wire crimping issue, so I'm hoping this is not just a temporary burst but a new sustained pace. Cautiously optimistic.

I wonder if corners are being cut in order to speed up delivery. As long as failures begin happening after the warranty period (?) Bombardier will be off the hook. NOT that I want to be so pessimistic, and I thus trust that Bombardier has made real productivity improvements without compromising build or component quality.

I do wish there was an Ontario-based firm we could give consider giving future TTC contracts to. The only non-Quebec, Ontario based rail firm I can think of is https://www.steelcar.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Steel_Car and they don't seem capable. Too bad Boeing is out of the LRT game, as we could has asked the Feds to connect rail and CF-18 replacement, assuming we go with the Super Hornet.

 

[Duck]

I'm not sure if you were aware, but the Boeing-Vertol LRV's that San Fransisco and Boston operated were probably the worst performing light rail vehicles in all of history. While they looked great and had an excellent aesthetic design, they were plagued with problems that ultimately led to them all being pulled out of service prematurely.

 

[nfitz]

How is a foreign company like Boeing with no history of rail manufacture in Ontario, Ontario-based, compared to Bombardier in Thunder Bay, in the facility where streetcars for Toronto have been built since the 1920s (or earlier?)?

 

[the lemur]

Earlier this evening (Saturday) there was a collision blocking College & Spadina, so the 510 diverted via College and Bathurst station for a while.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How is a foreign company like Boeing with no history of rail manufacture in Ontario, Ontario-based, compared to Bombardier in Thunder Bay, in the facility where streetcars for Toronto have been built since the 1920s (or earlier?)?

There's no real comparison, or domestic alternative to Bombardier, and that's what I'm bemoaning. When the next TTC vehicles are needed, such as a new LRT line or for subway expansion, Toronto knows and Bombardier knows the orders will be going to Bombardier, removing any leverage the city has to get the best deal or avoid another delivery mess like this current streetcar issue by choosing another supplier.

However, there is hope for the TTC in recent examples of other Canadian transit organizations escaping Toronto's self-imposed Bombardier monopoly.

1) Vancouver bought their Canada Line trains from Hyundai, even though the entirety of its system to that date was Bombardier-supplied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Line

2) Calgary chose to buy from Siemens for its new fleet, continuing their relationship with the German provider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTrain

3) Ottawa's O-Train is from Siemens, notwithstanding being located in the hub of government lobbying and slush.

4) Toronto's new UPE train is purchased from Nippon Sharyo.

My hope is that the TTC will at least consider other suppliers for future projects, at least keeping Bombardier on their toes.

It's not Toronto's responsibility to keep jobs in Thunder Bay and Ciudad Sahagún.

 

[dowlingm]

• Nobody's going to tool up a Canadian line for small orders like O-Train.
• UPX were able to point to Pan Am deadlines in buying into the Nippon Sharyo line but it's doubtful there was going to be a long line of bidders to build the initial 12 car order anyway, since Colorado Railcar was dead and no-one else was cutting metal on DMUs.
• The Canada Line bidding specifically forbade Translink from considering economies of scale achievable by buying more ICTS. By contrast, the TTC bid out on one sort of LRV and then handed the winning bidder, presumably with Metrolinx' blessing, a massive extra order for quite different cars.
• High floor LRVs are going out of style which is why it made sense for Calgary to buy more from the most reliable existing provider of the type, but note that Edmonton is going low floor for their new line (with cars from Thunder Bay, no less)

Now, I was and remain a critic of the fact that Bombardier was not induced to create the LRT line in Southern Ontario, preferably within Toronto, since the bid was issued during a time of huge auto sector downsizing, it was a new line rather than a continuation of existing business like the GO train cars and the cars were not just purchased with provincial $ but municipal $ too. But if you want to turn to an alternative Canadian provider for TTC business there is an option in Quebec (Alstom). After all, we buy Quebec transit buses for TTC now.

Maybe the T1 fleet replacement would be a big enough order for them, or Siemens, to throw their hat in the ring when the time comes. But given the inherent advantages Bombardier has in the TR design and familiarity with what TTC wants in terms of fit and the new signals, I can't see any other outcome there but more of the same, assuming Bombardier Transportation is still actually part of Bombardier itself by then and not sold off to pay the debts incurred to build C-Series.

 

[Adjei]

Ottawa is also getting their new LRT from Alstom.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Now, I was and remain a critic of the fact that Bombardier was not induced to create the LRT line in Southern Ontario, preferably within Toronto, since the bid was issued during a time of huge auto sector downsizing,

I can't imagine anywhere within Toronto where streetcars could be fabricated and/or assembled.

In southern Ontario we have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arva_Industries and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Steel_Car Arva makes rolling stock for the TTC today, while NSC is only heavy train stock. Neither have any experience in passenger LRT.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Ottawa is also getting their new LRT from Alstom.

True, I missed that one.

I think this and the systems I mentioned above indicate that for light rail there are several viable competitors to Bombardier, but not for trams or streetcars that can meet Toronto's specific needs.

 

[ottbike]

True, I missed that one.

I think this and the systems I mentioned above indicate that for light rail there are several viable competitors to Bombardier, but not for trams or streetcars that can meet Toronto's specific needs.

The picture of the O-Train you had posted was the older Talent Series, built by Bombardier and now retired. The new O-Trains are LINT Coradias from Alstom. The Confederation Line LRTs, now being assembled in Ottawa, are Alstom Citadis Spirits.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ah... for the days when the street railway companies actually built their own streetcars. Then, of course, you'll have to do without all those fancy stuff like air conditioning, forced air heating, speakers, electronics, safety glass, etc.

From link:

Builder: Toronto Railway Company, 1913

Builder: Toronto Railway Company, 1910