[AlvinofDiaspar]

The low projected production figure for the rest of the year is the first Bombardier claim we can believe.

You can't put a new production line in place overnight. The tooling, and the debugging of the tooling, will take months.

If Bombardier has decided to manufacture underframes in Quebec, and start a second production line to run in parallel with Thunder Bay, they have made a pretty draconian change. I haven't seen the words "pull the plug on Mexico" in their release, but it may amount to that.

This may not be sufficient, or satisfactory, but it's definitely stopping the slide downwards.

But what, 13 more plus whatever they have delivered so far (4?) - the plant in TB can only provide an output of ~20 a year?

AoD

 

[cplchanb]

But what, 13 more plus whatever they have delivered so far (4?) - the plant in TB can only provide an output of ~20 a year?

AoD

Just goes to show how inefficient the current production model is. They took a huge gamble by betting on outsourcing and are now getting burnt on the stake for this.

 

[drum118]

I sure TB can produce more cars per year if the parts arrived correctly manufacture in the first place. How many frames have to be rebuilt to fix the mistake or be scrap before they can use it to build a car in the first place??

We have known for sometime TTC representatives have been rejecting parts/cars as they were not up to TTC spec, since they refused to drown grade the specs in the first place.

If parts arrive on schedule and manufacture correctly, they could build more than 60 cars a year considering they were doing almost 100 for the CLRVs, though a different animal.

 

[nfitz]

Thank you for agreeing.

I said the same months ago. I've also repeatedly said that Bombardier has shown no evidence of being able to sustain any higher than 1 car a month.

I am debating it because getting caught up in analyzing their proposed ramp up plans is a waste of time at this point. The TTC is getting to a critically serious spot here and wasting time listening to Snake Oil Inc's filth takes away from the much needed analysis and decision-making process to find a new supplier.

Replacing Bombardier might delay things even further.

They've gotten a clear track record with the GO and TR cars. If they are actually going to take the Mexico plant out of the equation, then this could be a good long-term fix, given La Pocatière's long history. They've had no problems building the GO frames there.

Where were the TR frames done (honest question)?

 

[Napoleon]

The low projected production figure for the rest of the year is the first Bombardier claim we can believe.

I sure hope so! They have yet to achieve even 2 streetcars per month with any regularity, so this is still a ramp-up, although half of the planned ramp up.

I am glad to see Bombardier finally taking a serious set of concrete steps to address this issue. Adding a new manufacturing line certainly can't slow delivery at least.

 

[cplchanb]

I sure hope so! They have yet to achieve even 2 streetcars per month with any regularity, so this is still a ramp-up, although half of the planned ramp up.

I am glad to see Bombardier finally taking a serious set of concrete steps to address this issue. Adding a new manufacturing line certainly can't slow delivery at least.

Unless said line is in Mexico....now they have 2 dysfunctional lines.....

 

[Admiral Beez]

Well yeah, so their trade space is trying to solve the problem without much regard to the customer's schedule instead of going for the solution right off the bat. Charming - the legal recourse should rightly take that into account.

As I wrote earlier, BBD's plans for resolving this are based on the sum of the TTC's options/switching cost and the likely fines for late delivery. When your customer has no option and the fines are minimal and partially offset by provincial and federal grants/loans, well, you can treat your customer like crap and know they'll come back for more.

I've been there, in this exact situation albeit on a smaller scale. Our plant screwed up, and the first thing the GM asked was, what options does the customer have? What are their switching costs? They were both nearly non-existent and very high; so we treated the customer accordingly, like our bitch. I quit that nasty environment decades ago.

 

[drum118]

With this further delay and only having (maybe) 30 cars in the system by year end, 2017 should see the delivery of the new cars as Pan only, not the plan 60 cars since they were to be here in 2015.

TTC has a few options as where they can go with this order if they are willing to deal with the problem head on.

At this point, TTC should make it known to BBD that they will not be allow to bid on any TTC rolling stock until 2035-40, which would be about the time the TR start to come up to be replace. They will miss the replacement of the T1 cars. It will be almost the same time some of the new streetcars will have to be replace as well.

Then, will BBD rail division be around, let alone the company then?

One hopes Queens Park has their eyes open over this mess and decides to change course to make sure the taxpayer are getting their money worth and not protecting seats

 

[pman]

With this further delay and only having (maybe) 30 cars in the system by year end, 2017 should see the delivery of the new cars as Pan only, not the plan 60 cars since they were to be here in 2015.

TTC has a few options as where they can go with this order if they are willing to deal with the problem head on.

At this point, TTC should make it known to BBD that they will not be allow to bid on any TTC rolling stock until 2035-40, which would be about the time the TR start to come up to be replace. They will miss the replacement of the T1 cars. It will be almost the same time some of the new streetcars will have to be replace as well.

Then, will BBD rail division be around, let alone the company then?

One hopes Queens Park has their eyes open over this mess and decides to change course to make sure the taxpayer are getting their money worth and not protecting seats

While I agree that Toronto should disqualify BBD from future bids for a long time over this screw up, I can't see that happening when we're going to ask the Feds and the province for so much transit funding. BBD may not be able to deliver streetcars, but they're incredibly competent at manipulating the federal government, and there isn't a lot of daylight between Wynne and Trudeau.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One hopes Queens Park has their eyes open over this mess and decides to change course to make sure the taxpayer are getting their money worth and not protecting seats

One seat in NW Ontario. NDP can keep it if it meant aligning with incompetence.

As I wrote earlier, BBD's plans for resolving this are based on the sum of the TTC's options/switching cost and the likely fines for late delivery. When your customer has no option and the fines are minimal and partially offset by provincial and federal grants/loans, well, you can treat your customer like crap and know they'll come back for more.

I've been there, in this exact situation albeit on a smaller scale. Our plant screwed up, and the first thing the GM asked was, what options does the customer have? What are their switching costs? They were both nearly non-existent and very high; so we treated the customer accordingly, like our bitch. I quit that nasty environment decades ago.

Which is exactly why the contract should be scrapped right now - nothing like giving them a surprise considering you've been burned already. If one is going to hell, at least one'd get some company.

AoD

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Which is exactly why the contract should be scrapped right now - nothing like giving them a surprise considering you've been burned already. If one is going to hell, at least one'd get some company.

and if we so thath what if the feds and province say sorry no money unless you can find someone to set up shop in Ontario. The US is doing it with by America so why can't we ay buy Canadian?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

and if we so thath what if the feds and province say sorry no money unless you can find someone to set up shop in Ontario. The US is doing it with by America so why can't we ay buy Canadian?

By all means - if they want to look like they want to be giving corporate welfare for a bum that can't deliver. BBD isn't exactly on the right side of public opinion these days - there is a reason why the Feds are taking bloody forever to bail them out (and still haven't done so). If they want to match QC and drop 1 neat B, they should just go ahead now and spare us the talk about governance changes and go straight for the nationalistic fervour.

AoD

 

[dowlingm]

One seat in NW Ontario. NDP can keep it if it meant aligning with incompetence

two provincial ridings. TB-Atikokan, TB-Superior North, both OLP held

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

two provincial ridings. TB-Atikokan, TB-Superior North, both OLP held

Well, they will have to decide whether it's worth it. Competency in delievery isn't exactly something associated with the OLP these days either.

AoD

 

[Steve X]

With this further delay and only having (maybe) 30 cars in the system by year end, 2017 should see the delivery of the new cars as Pan only, not the plan 60 cars since they were to be here in 2015.

TTC has a few options as where they can go with this order if they are willing to deal with the problem head on.

At this point, TTC should make it known to BBD that they will not be allow to bid on any TTC rolling stock until 2035-40, which would be about the time the TR start to come up to be replace. They will miss the replacement of the T1 cars. It will be almost the same time some of the new streetcars will have to be replace as well.

Then, will BBD rail division be around, let alone the company then?

One hopes Queens Park has their eyes open over this mess and decides to change course to make sure the taxpayer are getting their money worth and not protecting seats

By disallowing BBD, that would just drive up the bid prices as competitors knows BBD can't bid. At the end taxpayers end up suffering as the TTC/city would have a harder time finding funds. Instead just let them bid and not select them due to their super poor delivery performance.

The TTC can't really cancel either. They'll have to pay to cancel the contract and find new funds for another tender while explaining to the Queens Park and the feds why they need fore funds to buy the same thing. It will probably not sit well with them either. I'm not here to love BBD but TO is really just shoved in a corner with no options.