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Which part of this 13M is nothing to do with BBD did yoiu miss?

I missed the part where you considered that it is BBD that put the TTC in the position of having to refurb ALRV's because it's likely the 60 car option won't be exercised.

And I also missed the part where you considered that $13M more the TTC has to spend on ALRV's is $13M they won't be able to spend on anything else.
 
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I wonder if Bombardier would strike some sort of deal for the extra cars that are a part of the order like maybe eat the cost due to late delivery. At this point I think we are stuck with them as I relly don't think the TTC has the money to break a contract with Bombardier and then put out tenders for another product and then pay another manufactur. Alos I think the reason they might put the build in Ontario/ Canada clause into contracts is so they don't have to pay import duty and taxes on them and inserted the manufacture picks them up for the parts they ship in.
 
I think by the time we actually have 60 cars that TTC, BBD and Ontario will find the quietest way possible to get the option signed. With the line at Millhaven producing Metrolinx LRVs, the extra 60 cars keeps those jobs in TB ticking over another 18 months or so.

Presumably Edmonton's LRVs (remember them?) are going to Millhaven too?
 
I think by the time we actually have 60 cars that TTC, BBD and Ontario will find the quietest way possible to get the option signed. With the line at Millhaven producing Metrolinx LRVs, the extra 60 cars keeps those jobs in TB ticking over another 18 months or so.

Presumably Edmonton's LRVs (remember them?) are going to Millhaven too?
Good points, but here's how London UK dealt with them, and sometimes, a big stick is what's needed to get action, and fulfilling the deal promised, and promised, and promised again:
London Assembly members say “poor commercial expertise and a lack of IT procurement skills” led London Underground to sign its ill-fated signalling upgrade contract with Bombardier.

In June 2011 the firm was awarded a £354m contract to replace and upgrade signalling systems on the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines.“This is nothing short of a disaster for London…what is most remarkable about this affair is that no-one in TfL has been held to account.”
John Biggs AM

However in December 2013 Transport for London terminated the contract after concluding that Bombardier was unable to deliver. Despite its failures, the engineering firm was paid £85m by TfL which later appointed Thales to carry out the work.

As a result of the need to re-tender, the Sub-Surface Upgrade Programme is five years behind schedule and is forecast to cost nearly £900 million more than originally estimated.

A new report published today by the Assembly’s Budget and Performance Committee says weaknesses within TfL left the organisation “ill-prepared to appoint a suitable contractor for the project, and vulnerable enough to be duped into a contract which Bombardier was never able to deliver.”

Mike Brown, managing director at London Underground when the contract was signed, told MayorWatch last year that the signs from projects in two other cities using Bombardier’s system “were positive” but that when problems later occurred in both, he decided to “get out of it” before any more cash was committed.

Mr Brown, who is now London’s Transport Commissioner, also told this site that it had been right to protect taxpayer money by cancelling the contract even if that meant enduring some short term criticism.

However today’s report claims senior managers were “only interested in presenting good news” and accuses them of being “in denial about the progress and effectiveness of the programme, allowing it to continue for much longer than it should have.”

Although AMs acknowledge the organisation has implemented changes to its processes, they say “the broader question about the quality of judgement shown by the senior management team remains.”

To ensure taxpayer money is better protected in future, they want Boris Johnson’s successor as mayor to beef up TfL’s board to ensure “it has the breadth of skills and experience to effectively cover all aspects of TfL’s operational and investment activity.”

Committee chair John Biggs AM said: “This is nothing short of a disaster for London. Neither TfL nor Bombardier’s management teams were up to the task of managing the programme, but it is Londoners that will ultimately pay the price in travel delays and inefficiencies.”

“What is most remarkable about this affair is that no-one in TfL has been held to account, and the Mayor, who chairs its board, serenely and indifferently acts as if a £900 million increase to the budget isn’t an issue.

“In government, heads – political or official – would roll after such financial mismanagement. At TfL the key players have been promoted and nobody was to blame. It is a scandal.”

Responding to the report, a TfL spokesperson said: “Work is now well underway to upgrade the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines, which will mean massive improvements to the frequency and reliability of services for our customers.”

“The modernisation of these lines, which make up 40 per cent of the Tube network, is vital to our city’s future. It was essential that decisive action was taken to end the old Bombardier contract as soon as it became clear that it would not deliver for London.

“As the Assembly acknowledges, we have implemented the central recommendations from KPMG’s independent review of the Bombardier contract which we published in July 2014.”

The spokesperson also said the organisation had already reduced its overheads by 15% “to make every pound go further” and is “now pressing on with removing further costs in every part of the organisation.”

They added: “We also have plans to generate £3.4 billion in commercial revenue from property and other assets for reinvestment in improving transport.”
http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/london-...lls-blamed-for-ill-fated-bombardier-contract/

Here's the London Assembly's report:
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/transport_for_londons_signal_failure.pdf

And not to be outdone:

AMT quietly cancels $103-million bid from Bombardier for double-decker train cars
http://montrealgazette.com/business...s-103-million-bid-from-bombardier-report-says

Toronto may be stuck on this one, but I think you're right, get what was signed for before ordering more. Put Bombardier up the creek and see how they like like it.
 
The difference between the TTC, Go transit and the other metrolinx projects is that they are all funded by government that want to keep business in Canada for large scale transportation manufacturing. Yes other companies bid as well and it's possible Bombardier won because they were the lowest bid but could it also be because they were the only ones giving the TTC as close to their specs as they wanted. For example it's not common to power the middle truck of LRV type streetcar but the TTC wanted it done because we have some steep grades her in the city. I think the one up bathurst to St,. Clair is %7 which is a very step grade for a rail vehicle to climb on its own. Don't forget in the days of steam they used to have to have helpers make it up the grade form Union station to Danforth and that's a lot less of a grade then Bathurst street is.
 
The difference between the TTC, Go transit and the other metrolinx projects is that they are all funded by government that want to keep business in Canada for large scale transportation manufacturing. Yes other companies bid as well and it's possible Bombardier won because they were the lowest bid but could it also be because they were the only ones giving the TTC as close to their specs as they wanted. For example it's not common to power the middle truck of LRV type streetcar but the TTC wanted it done because we have some steep grades her in the city. I think the one up bathurst to St,. Clair is %7 which is a very step grade for a rail vehicle to climb on its own. Don't forget in the days of steam they used to have to have helpers make it up the grade form Union station to Danforth and that's a lot less of a grade then Bathurst street is.
It goes beyond that, Bombardier were the *only* bid, Siemens walked away from it, rumour being that they knew that BBD was bidding way under what was possible. IIRC, Siemens were going to set-up an assembly op in Mississauga.
 
It goes beyond that, Bombardier were the *only* bid ...
This is not true. There were three bids in the first round. And two bids in the second round. BBD was the lowest bid in the second round (bid amounts were not revealed in the first round, as TTC tossed ALL the bids for not being technically compliant - including BBDs).
 
It goes beyond that, Bombardier were the *only* bid, Siemens walked away from it, rumour being that they knew that BBD was bidding way under what was possible. IIRC, Siemens were going to set-up an assembly op in Mississauga.

Yes I herd that too about Seams I think the bid was rejected for time frame reasons as they din't have a location for a plant to build them yet I also herd they had thought about building one in Hamilton. Yes Bombardier may have had an unfair advantage but that always happens in big business deals like this one company had and advantage over the others. Like for example you will probably never see Pepsi in a McDonald's because Pepsi will never give them the deal that Cole gave them which basically amounts to a big cross promotion for them It's something like as long as they put Coca Cola on the cups and give them some amount as a licensing fee they get the syrup for free.
 
Yes I herd that too about Seams I think the bid was rejected for time frame reasons as they din't have a location for a plant to build them yet I also herd they had thought about building one in Hamilton. Yes Bombardier may have had an unfair advantage but that always happens in big business deals like this one company had and advantage over the others. Like for example you will probably never see Pepsi in a McDonald's because Pepsi will never give them the deal that Cole gave them which basically amounts to a big cross promotion for them It's something like as long as they put Coca Cola on the cups and give them some amount as a licensing fee they get the syrup for free.
At one point, the McDonald's in Comerica Park in Detroit sold Pepsi products:

Comerica-Park-Detroit-MI-Panorama.jpg
That photo was taken in 2006; back then Little Caesar's sold Coke products (yet sold Pepsi products in Comerica Park (and still does today there) a few years before Little Caesar's worldwide (and yes, there are a handful of Little Caesar's in Toronto, as well as one across Jane Street from Canada's Wonderland) stopped selling Coke products).

The McDonald's in Staples Center (in Los Angeles), as well as in both the Luxor and the Excalibur Hotels in Las Vegas, also sold Pepsi products.

Read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_McDonald's_products#Beverages
 
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By TESS KALINOWSKI
Transportation Reporter (TorStar)
Fri., April 24, 2009
[...]
The award follows about two years of controversy. The TTC went to a strictly monitored request for proposals process on the streetcar contract after it awarded the contract for new subway cars to Bombardier in 2006 without negotiating with competing manufacturers.

The $710 million deal was designed to support the struggling Thunder Bay economy. But Siemens and some city councillors said it might have robbed Toronto taxpayers of the opportunity to get a better deal on the subway cars.

But when the TTC started the RFP process for the streetcars only two companies submitted bids: Bombardier and a small British firm, TRAM Power.

The TTC said both bids failed to meet its requirements and suggested that Bombardier's car, versions of which run in cities around the world, wasn't technically able to take Toronto's tight turns.

The RFP was cancelled and the TTC went to a negotiated bidding process using the same technical specifications. Bombardier re-entered the race and was joined by Siemens.

Chairman Adam Giambrone stressed today that the streetcars represent "the No. 1 ask of the City of Toronto for the (federal) stimulus dollars."

"We will be looking to negotiate with Bombardier for a higher Canadian content," Giambrone told reporters, adding that "we have to assume that there may be additional cost" for this.

The contract price doesn't include a new maintenance facility required for the larger vehicles, estimated to cost $345 million, which Giambrone suggested would likely be located in the city's port district.

"The new LRVs will be low-floor, quieter, have features such as air conditioning for greater customer comfort, and be able to carry almost twice as many people as the TTC's current streetcars do," the commission said.

TTC engineering staff – previously worried that Bombardier's vehicles could not negotiate tight turns on the Toronto track network – "is satisfied that Bombardier's proposed car will operate safely in Toronto."

The decision on funding faces a June 27 deadline beyond which Bombardier's price is no longer guaranteed.

Giambrone observed that the city, province and federal government traditionally split such spending evenly, but "the funding charts often get incredibly complex."

Thunder Bay New Democrat MP Bruce Hyer welcomed the announcement, which "will bring some hope to workers that are left behind by the Conservative government."

NDP Leader Jack Layton, who represents a Toronto riding, added in a statement that parts for the streetcars will come from various Ontario plants and "now it's time for the federal government to do its part and allow the City of Toronto to use its share of the stimulus package for this project."
https://www.thestar.com/business/2009/04/24/ttc_picks_bombardier_to_supply_streetcars.html
 
That's the subway order; it wasn't bid. The discussion here is about streetcars, which was an open bid, partly due to the earlier uproar about the subway cars. And Bombardier was by far the lowest bidder, at roughly $5 million per car ... the next bid was about $7.5 million a car.
 
That's the subway order; it wasn't bid. The discussion here is about streetcars, which was an open bid, partly due to the earlier uproar about the subway cars. And Bombardier was by far the lowest bidder, at roughly $5 million per car ... the next bid was about $7.5 million a car.

ok apart from being constructed a few hours away....how on earth did bbr undercut the price by millions per car???
what corners did they cut?
 
ok apart from being constructed a few hours away....how on earth did bbr undercut the price by millions per car???
what corners did they cut?
Honest bidding. Bombardier should also be penalized for submitting a fraudulent bid, as they can't meet the Cdn content required, and knew it when they bid, which is exactly why Siemen's bid was so "high". It wasn't high, it was realistic, which is why Siemen's pulled out the first time. They had a bid that would have won, but not with the required Can-con.

BBD has pulled a fast one on this in a number of ways. It remains to be seen if the TTC keeps their word on "barring BBD from any further contracts".
 

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