[Admiral Beez]

Utter nonsense. There will be more contracts with Bombardier. This contract should not influence separate and different future contracts.

Surely inability to deliver on an agreed contract "should" have no influence on future contracts?

Why else have a contract with set and measurable performance metrics?

 

[nfitz]

if its the former case, would it be because of union regulations?

I'm just assuming so.

It's not like it's the union's fault, that management screwed up. They've already been screwed over with all the lay-offs because there's nothing to work on, and now lost jobs, with some of the production moved from Thunder Bay to Millhaven.

 

[Allandale25]

Is it just me or does it not seem there hasn't been any news or pictures on the next streetcar delivery. Apologies if there was a recent update further up the thread.

 

[crs1026]

they really have some audacity to assume they can afford a summer shut down. I would think that given their plight they would do the opposite and ramp up more shifts...
if its the former case, would it be because of union regulations?

Many heavy industries declare a 'plant shutdown' for 2-3 weeks and require all employees to take their vacation at that time.

Don't assume that the plant's union asked for, or is in favour of, the forced shutdown. It severely restricts workers' vacation options. More often it's the company who want the fixed window with all production halted, so they could do major maintenance, changeovers etc without having product on the line, and without having to figure out coverage for key positions while the regular incumbents are away.

What a union would likely demand is that if a vacation window had been declared previously, the company must honour it.... at least to the degree that workers who may have made bookings, paid deposits, coordinated vacations with friends or family members, etc etc aren't jerked around. Doesn't preclude asking for volunteers to take vacation some other time, if that's practicable and mutually agreeable.

All speculation about how the Blunder Bay plant functions, but please don't hint that we should slag the union without facts.

- Paul

 

[pstogios]

I'd asume that there'd be a 2-week summer shutdown of the plant.

Was that included in the following optimistic view?

I suspect the 30 delivered by end of the year includes 4402 - so only 7 after 4402. They need 8 cars in about 21 weeks. Closer to one every 3 weeks - they might make it yet.

Maybe you shouldn't have been so optimistic.

Even if 4402 is delivered tomorrow, after that car, the company is on track to deliver only 6 more this year (4428 would be delivered on Dec. 14). This assumes one car every 3 weeks.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Surely inability to deliver on an agreed contract "should" have no influence on future contracts?

I believe it was a suggestion by a counselor and not actually the TTC to exclude them from future contracts. The TTC has instead decided to sue them for the cost of rebuilding CLRVs to keep them in service until they can be retired. If you relly think that Bombardier will be barred from bidding for a TTC contact again then I can sell you the Prince Edward Viaduct for $1.

 

[steveintoronto]

I can sell you the Prince Edward Viaduct for $1.

Is there GST on that?

I believe it was a suggestion by a counselor and not actually the TTC to exclude them from future contracts.

Not a *councillor*...the Deputy Mayor and TTC Board member:

[...]
The chair of the TTC board and its CEO are heading to Thunder Bay Tuesday to impress upon Bombardier Toronto’s growing impatience with the late delivery of the city’s new $1.25-billion streetcars.

But if the high-level meeting isn’t enough to get the cars moving, the TTC is also investigating other options.

On Monday, the transit agency’s board ordered a report by July that would look at whether Bombardier could be shut out of future TTC bids.

Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, the deputy mayor and TTC board member who called for the report on potential consequences to Bombardier’s late delivery, said it’s one option if Bombardier doesn’t comply with a schedule.

“Typically when we have a bad vendor or a bad contractor in construction we say, ‘You can’t bid. We’re not going to let you bid on future contracts for a certain amount of time.’ My understanding is we may have some future contracts with respect to rolling stock and my understanding is we could tell Bombardier, ‘We don’t want you to bid on these contracts,’ ” he said.[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...t-heat-on-bombardier-for-late-streetcars.html

 

[TransitBart]

I think if everyone looks back on the history, that you will all find that Mayor, smartypants, and purchasing expert David Miller was involved up to his elbows on this one. His greatness sole-sourced this from city hall, under the guise of sustaining Thunder Bay's industrial base. Perhaps his next goal was to be Prime Minister. who knows? It was a vastly political decision on a procurement that should have been all about technology and price.

All of us know that the TTC has a perfectly functional and competent purchasing department that does not need help from city hall. All of us know that politically driven procurement leads to some of the most inefficient and shoddy buying of all.

The problem is not and was not Bombardier, but politics. Sure exclude Bombardier in the future, then you'll have a sole-source Siemens contract. No better.

Shoddy management plagues many companies at times. The company is a fine company with a good history that has stumbled very badly on this contract. That does not remove the need to complete the current contract ASAP and also to get on with sourcing another 60 streetcars for the legacy network so that we can get through the sardines in a can routine riding the 504.

 

[steveintoronto]

David Miller and Satan, it's all their fault:

Bombardier Inc only won Delta CSeries contract because of improper ...
business.financialpost.com/.../bombardier-inc-only-won-delta-cseries-contract-becaus...
May 13, 2016 - “Of course, we win and lose deals in the market,” Silva said. “My remarks and my complaint are given (because of) the way we lost this ...
Bombardier Inc slammed by London for 'shameful' Tube project ...
business.financialpost.com/.../bombardier-inc-slammed-by-london-for-shameful-tube...
Mar 14, 2016 - In a scathing report, London's city council lambasted Bombardier for 'duping' the British capital into awarding it a train-signalling contract that it ...
Bombardier loses out on Chicago rail contract | Montreal Gazette
montrealgazette.com › ... › Aerospace › Personal Finance › Real Estate › Retail
Mar 10, 2016 - Bombardier has been snubbed by the Chicago Transit Authority for a major rail order.
AMT quietly cancels $103-million bid from Bombardier, according to ...
montrealgazette.com › ... › Aerospace › Personal Finance › Real Estate › Retail
May 17, 2016 - Bombardier also said it is not able to build the trains within the 24-month period stipulated in the contract, saying it needs 36 months to build the ...
You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 28/08/16
AMT cancels $103M contract proposal destined for Bombardier - CBC.ca
www.cbc.ca/.../amt-cancels-103m-contract-proposal-destined-for-bombardier-1.358592...
May 17, 2016 - The AMT has rejected Bombardier's proposal for new commuter trains worth worth $103 million and is now preparing a new call for tenders ...
Bombardier loses large London rail contract | Toronto Star
https://www.thestar.com/business/.../bombardier_loses_large_london_rail_contract.ht...
Jun 16, 2011 - Bombardier loses large London rail contract. Bombardier's rail facility in Derby was dealt a heavy blow Thursday after the British government ...

Google results for "Bombardier loses contract"

David Miller really gets around, quite astounding actually...I guess he doesn't take the TTC?

 

[drum118]

I think if everyone looks back on the history, that you will all find that Mayor, smartypants, and purchasing expert David Miller was involved up to his elbows on this one. His greatness sole-sourced this from city hall, under the guise of sustaining Thunder Bay's industrial base. Perhaps his next goal was to be Prime Minister. who knows? It was a vastly political decision on a procurement that should have been all about technology and price.

All of us know that the TTC has a perfectly functional and competent purchasing department that does not need help from city hall. All of us know that politically driven procurement leads to some of the most inefficient and shoddy buying of all.

The problem is not and was not Bombardier, but politics. Sure exclude Bombardier in the future, then you'll have a sole-source Siemens contract. No better.

Shoddy management plagues many companies at times. The company is a fine company with a good history that has stumbled very badly on this contract. That does not remove the need to complete the current contract ASAP and also to get on with sourcing another 60 streetcars for the legacy network so that we can get through the sardines in a can routine riding the 504.

It hasn't made any different who was Mayor or when since the 70's on out sourcing TTC rolling stock since TTC knew who was going to do the work in the first place.

Can anyone remember a tender going out for the T1's and TR's, as I don't recall hearing one at all??

I can tell you for a fact that there will be more bidder than Siemens going after TTC, GO Transit and VIA Rail orders with a wide open bidding process. Siemens is out of the picture for Streetcars until about 2022 at this time.

I have said since 2004, TTC was only asking for problems by putting all their eggs in one basket. That basket is a mess and needs to be thrown out.

I think the time has come to challenge Queen Park about dropping this job protection and who gets contracts since it fails to comply with current trade agreements, but most of all, we as taxpayers are getting rip off by pay more than what we should be in the first place.

I have seen first hand where Shoddy management have put top notch companies out of business.

I wouldn't be surprise to see the demise of BBD Aerospace Division within the next 10 year, since there is a 3rd player in the market now who will have their first plane flying by x company come 2018. A 4th is to show up in 2020's.

 

[drum118]

David Miller and Satan, it's all their fault:

Google results for "Bombardier loses contract"

David Miller really gets around, quite astounding actually...I guess he doesn't take the TTC?

When Miller was Mayor, ran into him a number of times on Line 2 during the day that no special events on. Even ran into him and his family a few times. Don't know how he travels these days.

Amtrak just awarded Alston a contract for more Acela train and BBD is not part of the contract like they were on the original order.

Once (if) BBD cleans up the mess on the current 4 orders for streetcars, it will be closing door time. If Montreal buy the Sky train as plan, it will be door closing after everything is built since no one is buying it these days. Honolulu who is building one that most likely see 50% of it built with the rest being LRT since its currently $1.5 usd Billion over budget and climbing. Council has issue a stop order for buying property for this line. BBD lost the contract for this line.

 

[steveintoronto]

When Miller was Mayor, ran into him a number of times on Line 2 during the day that no special events on. Even ran into him and his family a few times. Don't know how he travels these days.

Amtrak just awarded Alston a contract for more Acela train and BBD is not part of the contract like they were on the original order.

Once (if) BBD cleans up the mess on the current 4 orders for streetcars, it will be closing door time. If Montreal buy the Sky train as plan, it will be door closing after everything is built since no one is buying it these days. Honolulu who is building one that most likely see 50% of it built with the rest being LRT since its currently $1.5 usd Billion over budget and climbing. Council has issue a stop order for buying property for this line. BBD lost the contract for this line.

My comments were sarcasm. I've actually had a number of good experiences with Miller. He may be to the Left of me, but he's always been a straight shooter. If Miller is partly to blame, so is every other TO mayor since.

BBD have Toronto over a barrel. London took a hell of a hit, here's their response, and Toronto is going to end up doing same:

London’s city council has lambasted Bombardier Inc. for “duping” the British capital into awarding it a train-signalling contract that it was incapable of delivering, creating “nothing short of a disaster” for the London Underground.

The scathing report, prepared by the London Assembly’s Budget & Performance Committee, doesn’t mince words in its criticism of Bombardier and Transport for London (TfL), the government body that awarded the contract.

London Mayor Boris Johnson also didn’t equivocate, telling the committee that Bombardier “totally stuffed it up.”

In June 2011, Bombardier’s transportation division was awarded a contract to upgrade the London Underground’s automatic train control, or signalling system.

The company said it could do the job by 2018 for 354 million pounds (about $670 million) but it quickly became apparent that it wouldn’t be able to deliver on time or on budget, according to the report, which calls Bombardier’s performance “shameful.”

As a result, the contract was cancelled in December 2013, costing the city 85 million pounds. The contract was re-awarded to Thales SA, a French transportation company, but will now be delivered five years late and cost 886 million pounds more than originally planned.

“TfL has accused Bombardier of more than incompetence,” the report says. “Bombardier’s inability to deliver the programme will be hugely damaging to its reputation as a world-class signalling supply company, but even more damaging are claims of misrepresentation. TfL believes it was duped by Bombardier from the outset about its expertise and experience.” [...]

http://business.financialpost.com/n...eful-tube-project-nothing-short-of-a-disaster

Transit Bart appears at times to be very right of centre, but his comments are inconsistent with rightist views on Bombardier. Boris Johnson, for instance, just ran for leadership of the UK Conservative Party, albeit lost, on a very reactive pro-Brexit platform. Most of the scathing stories in Canada about Bombardier are in the Financial Post, although both the TorStar and Globe have very barbed ones too.

Bombardier is unaccountable to its own shareholders, let alone clients. A family dynasty, propped up with Geritol and Taxpayer subsidy.

 

[nfitz]

Was that included in the following optimistic view?

Maybe you shouldn't have been so optimistic.

Saying "they might make it" is optimistic?

If I said that Trump might be elected, does that imply I'm optimistic that he'll be president and/or think the chance of his election is greater than 50%?

I've always assumed there's a 2-week summer and 2-week Christmas shut down.

 

[Edward Skira]

I've always assumed there's a 2-week summer and 2-week Christmas shut down.

Factories often shut down like this for regularly scheduled maintenance.

 

[Napoleon]

Factories often shut down like this for regularly scheduled maintenance.

Well they've been so slow producing streetcars, I'm sure there's been plenty of time to squeeze in whatever they needed to do.

Seriously though, it seems they must have had sections that are idle because they've been laying employees off. I can't imagine that it would be appropriate to have a shut down when they're this far behind.