[rbt]

However, Presto is currently not implemented correctly--every time I have used it in this manner, the return streetcar tap was billed $0.00 as a transfer, incorrectly, yielding a free ride, because it's programmed as a free 2-hour transfer with a "no tapping on the same route twice or you get charged again" restriction; so tapping at a subway station, riding to Spadina and taking the 510 south within the fare-paid zone using paper POP, then tapping to come back north has always been free for me.

Right. TTC isn't yet enforcing all the transfer rules necessary. In the near future you will tap at the subway station, tap on the 510 vehicle when you board it at the subway station (this will be considered a transfer and requires showing payment), ride south, then tap again to go north. That tap north will trigger the "second trip on same route" constraint and charge the second fare. Not tapping on the 510 when boarding at the subway station will (once enforced) be fare fraud.

If TTC is ambitious they may even install fare-gates between the subway platforms and surface routes for the busier transfers.

 

[Megaton327]

Except that you should tap on the streetcar for each leg, unless it's a short-turn. The paper transfer would look rather odd heading north on Spadina, depending which station it is (say Bathurst).

To clarify, I meant that I use a paper transfer on my southbound trip, i.e. wherever I board the subway elsewhere in the city, I get a paper transfer, and use it as my POP for my southbound 510 trip, boarding at Spadina. Then I tap my card on-board the northbound car.

 

[rbt]

To clarify, I meant that I use a paper transfer on my southbound trip, i.e. wherever I board the subway elsewhere in the city, I get a paper transfer, and use it as my POP for my southbound 510 trip, boarding at Spadina. Then I tap my card on-board the northbound car.

Once Presto is fully implemented paper transfers will be eliminated (along with tokens and metropasses). This is a side-effect of using 2 different fare-payment methods (necessary during the transition period).

 

[Steve X]

Right. TTC isn't yet enforcing all the transfer rules necessary. In the near future you will tap at the subway station, tap on the 510 vehicle when you board it at the subway station (this will be considered a transfer and requires showing payment), ride south, then tap again to go north. That tap north will trigger the "second trip on same route" constraint and charge the second fare. Not tapping on the 510 when boarding at the subway station will (once enforced) be fare fraud.

If TTC is ambitious they may even install fare-gates between the subway platforms and surface routes for the busier transfers.

Since it's impossible to tell presto to pay a new fare instead of a transfer, it's kinda hard to fine someone based on that. You can't pay a new fare even if you want to if you mistap at Spadina Station. Many occasional riders and tourist will miss this step until everyone starts doing it.

Installing fare gates between the streetcar platform is actually a safety hazard. People would have no where to go if there is an evacuation and would be stuck there if they don't have a presto card or any money.

 

[rbt]

Since it's impossible to tell presto to pay a new fare instead of a transfer, it's kinda hard to fine someone based on that.

Absolutely. What Megatron is doing is correct today.

Presto for TTC is not fully implemented. What Megatron is doing today, a necessity of the transition between payment systems, will be impossible (or incorrect at least) when Presto is fully implemented and the mechanism will charge the expected fare according to TTC rules.

Many occasional riders and tourist will miss this step until everyone starts doing it.

It will indeed be quite a challenge to get all riders to comply with the new process when it is introduced.

 

[nfitz]

To clarify, I meant that I use a paper transfer on my southbound trip, i.e. wherever I board the subway elsewhere in the city, I get a paper transfer, and use it as my POP for my southbound 510 trip, boarding at Spadina. Then I tap my card on-board the northbound car.

Ah yes, that would probably work now. And would fulfill the current requirements.

There's no end of ways to game the system if one wanted to. As there was (though in more limited ways) previously.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

f TTC is ambitious they may even install fare-gates between the subway platforms and surface routes for the busier transfers.

I suggested that via Twitter for Union and Spadina but apparently they want to go with the honor system.

 

[nfitz]

I suggested that via Twitter for Union and Spadina but apparently they want to go with the honor system.

If you arrive at Union or Spadina on a streetcar, you won't need to tap in, but you'll still need some POP to tap out of the system (at a station gate, or onto a vehicle) sooner or later. So it's not really an honour system.

 

[rbt]

I suggested that via Twitter for Union and Spadina but apparently they want to go with the honor system.

Yeah, I know what they want to try. They think exit gates will help keep people honest.

They'll add gates once fare enforcement notices people regularly getting on at the last stop before a station and exiting either via bus bays or another 1-stop ride. Most agencies go through this process to keep the initial gates price low then gradually add them as fare enforcement discovers common fraud points.

I think within a decade most stations will have gates between surface connections and the subway. Video based passenger counters on surface vehicles will tip them off to the large numbers of untapped passengers.

 

[TOareaFan]

https://twitter.com/FlexityTracker/status/776543107093520384

 

[klopsy]

All this talk of fining riders won't matter once it's deemed a human rights violation and illegal, like in Montreal:

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/fined-fo...-human-rights-violation-judge-rules-1.3075859

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Yeah, I know what they want to try. They think exit gates will help keep people honest.

They'll add gates once fare enforcement notices people regularly getting on at the last stop before a station and exiting either via bus bays or another 1-stop ride. Most agencies go through this process to keep the initial gates price low then gradually add them as fare enforcement discovers common fraud points.

I think within a decade most stations will have gates between surface connections and the subway. Video based passenger counters on surface vehicles will tip them off to the large numbers of untapped passengers.

I think they need them more as an enforcement for the exit and entrance for them. Too many people in both stations seem to think that the line doesn't apply to them and that it's ok to use the exit to get ahead of everyone else who is in line. I've seen fare inspectors and a few times the TTC person at the loop tell people to go to the back of the line.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

All this talk of fining riders won't matter once it's deemed a human rights violation and illegal, like in Montreal:

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/fined-fo...-human-rights-violation-judge-rules-1.3075859

I doubt this will stand as it's not really a true human rights violation. It's private property and they can enforce rules as they see them.

 

[Steve X]

In that case, they might just

I think they need them more as an enforcement for the exit and entrance for them. Too many people in both stations seem to think that the line doesn't apply to them and that it's ok to use the exit to get ahead of everyone else who is in line. I've seen fare inspectors and a few times the TTC person at the loop tell people to go to the back of the line.

The problem with these inspection is they add time and hassle to everyone's trip. It's becoming a major choke point but the 510 is too busy to inspect on vehicles.

Being inspected while riding a vehicle doesn't add to your trip time. These lineups do.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

In that case, they might just

The problem with these inspection is they add time and hassle to everyone's trip. It's becoming a major choke point but the 510 is too busy to inspect on vehicles.

Being inspected while riding a vehicle doesn't add to your trip time. These lineups do.

True but the lines are necessary given the space that the streetcars take up in the station plus everyone is supposed to exit it at either Union or spadina station. Don't forget Union before the second platform was built for the subway had a fare box that was staffed most of the time when the subway was open.