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nfitz said:
You are quoting the 2009 process there. The first round was in 2008. And the TTC did indeed reject two bids in July 2008. Steve Munro's article was premature. Siemens did indeed back out, Bombardier submitted the bizarre proposal to modify the curves on the streetcar network rather than make a car that could use the current network, and TRAM Power wasn't 100% low-floor (among other issues) See http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/streetcar-contract-stalled-as-ttc-rejects-bids-1.709339 and http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...upplementary_Reports/LF_LRV_Procurement__.pdf

They retendered it and in April 2009 had 2 bids. One from Bombardier for $993 million and one from Siemens for $1.526 billion. See https://www.thestar.com/business/2009/04/24/ttc_picks_bombardier_to_supply_streetcars.html and http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com.../Apr_27_2009/Reports/Commission_Report_Lo.pdf

It's all discussed in painful detail in 2008 and 2009 further up the thread.
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im just curious on how bbr can undercut seimens by over half a BILLION dollars. I wonder if they sacrificed potential guaranteed returns for this and was partly for the reason why they gambled on a mexican line.
I wondered how much the price difference would be if both companies assembled their cars only from canada
 
cplchanb said:
im just curious on how bbr can undercut seimens by over half a BILLION dollars. I wonder if they sacrificed potential guaranteed returns for this and was partly for the reason why they gambled on a mexican line.
I wondered how much the price difference would be if both companies assembled their cars only from canada
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That's a continuing point of contention, and an excellent question. Although impossible to prove, it's rumoured that Siemens purposely bid high, or that they bid what it costs to do it right, and BBD bid low to get the contract, knowing that they'd have to compromise on the stated specs and terms. There's certainly circumstantial evidence to support the latter.
I wondered how much the price difference would be if both companies assembled their cars only from canada
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Not possible in practical terms if you mean manufacture the parts here.
 
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cplchanb said:
im just curious on how bbr can undercut seimens by over half a BILLION dollars. I wonder if they sacrificed potential guaranteed returns for this and was partly for the reason why they gambled on a mexican line.
I wondered how much the price difference would be if both companies assembled their cars only from canada
Click to expand...

Simple. The original tender was for 204 cars. That's not where their money was to be made.

They were expecting the 400 cars in the option to be taken, and much of it has. That's where they were going to make their money.

I suspect that Siemens took a more conservative tack, and assumed profitability on the original tender. Anything beyond would have been gravy.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
Simple. The original tender was for 204 cars. That's not where their money was to be made.

They were expecting the 400 cars in the option to be taken, and much of it has. That's where they were going to make their money.

I suspect that Siemens took a more conservative tack, and assumed profitability on the original tender. Anything beyond would have been gravy.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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I agree that is a huge part of it...but I also think they were making a pretty big "Mexico bet" as well.....low cost bid but assuming they would get as much as possible done in Mexico to reduce their build cost and recreate margins.....if the Mexico plant had been up to snuff, or gotten up to snuff faster likely there is less of an issue today and they are making these cheap(er).
 
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Got their March delivery in before the mid point in the month.....any chance they get one more here before the 31st and double their monthly target ;) :)
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
I wonder if they will stick to the schedule or if they have one ready quicker if they would speed up delivery
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IMO...they would only speed it up if they new they could, say, deliver 2 in March and still deliver 1 in April....at this point credibility of, and reliability in, their projections/schedules is key.
 
TOareaFan said:
I agree that is a huge part of it...but I also think they were making a pretty big "Mexico bet" as well.....low cost bid but assuming they would get as much as possible done in Mexico to reduce their build cost and recreate margins.....if the Mexico plant had been up to snuff, or gotten up to snuff faster likely there is less of an issue today and they are making these cheap(er).
Click to expand...

This is where it gets a bit curious....

I'm not certain that the Mexico site was chosen for its cheapness. Traditionally, Bombardier has set up their different facilities to handle different tasks. Thunder Bay specialized in aluminum construction. La Pocatière did stainless steel. Most of the American plants did final assembly. In the case of the streetcars (and the TR subway cars), Bombardier fabricated much of the structure off-site as it was stainless steel, and everything was assembled at Thunder Bay.

Thunder Bay is pretty busy with their various projects, but La Pocatière is quite busy as well - they are building trucks and other components for the new Montréal subways, bodies for the newest batch of New York subway cars. At the time that the streetcar project started, they were also still pumping out bodies for TRs and Chicago subway cars, so there very well may have been a capacity constraint there.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
This is where it gets a bit curious....

I'm not certain that the Mexico site was chosen for its cheapness. Traditionally, Bombardier has set up their different facilities to handle different tasks. Thunder Bay specialized in aluminum construction. La Pocatière did stainless steel. Most of the American plants did final assembly. In the case of the streetcars (and the TR subway cars), Bombardier fabricated much of the structure off-site as it was stainless steel, and everything was assembled at Thunder Bay.

Thunder Bay is pretty busy with their various projects, but La Pocatière is quite busy as well - they are building trucks and other components for the new Montréal subways, bodies for the newest batch of New York subway cars. At the time that the streetcar project started, they were also still pumping out bodies for TRs and Chicago subway cars, so there very well may have been a capacity constraint there.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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Interesting thought
Perhaps the price difference from seimens was also maybe factoring in cost to divert production as well? For BBR they probably saved money by attempting yo start a new line in Mexico vs diverting assets,resources and their construction backlog from their existing lines to cater to the streetcars. I'm not sure if it was mentioned then but did the second line for the streetcars get set up on response to the delays or was it planned all along?
 
smallspy said:
This is where it gets a bit curious....

I'm not certain that the Mexico site was chosen for its cheapness. Traditionally, Bombardier has set up their different facilities to handle different tasks. Thunder Bay specialized in aluminum construction. La Pocatière did stainless steel. Most of the American plants did final assembly. In the case of the streetcars (and the TR subway cars), Bombardier fabricated much of the structure off-site as it was stainless steel, and everything was assembled at Thunder Bay.

Thunder Bay is pretty busy with their various projects, but La Pocatière is quite busy as well - they are building trucks and other components for the new Montréal subways, bodies for the newest batch of New York subway cars. At the time that the streetcar project started, they were also still pumping out bodies for TRs and Chicago subway cars, so there very well may have been a capacity constraint there.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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Capacity shortage here, plus capacity idle at Sahagun, possibly. Their last order for Guadalahara (2012-13) was only 12 vehicles, and I'm not aware that any of the big Mexico City orders that had been keeping them busy previously is still in process.

That, and the Mexican government is pretty good with "grants" to industries, also.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Capacity shortage here, plus capacity idle at Sahagun, possibly. Their last order for Guadalahara (2012-13) was only 12 vehicles, and I'm not aware that any of the big Mexico City orders that had been keeping them busy previously is still in process.

That, and the Mexican government is pretty good with "grants" to industries, also.

- Paul
Click to expand...

A capacity shortage/overage may very much be a possibility. They haven't had nearly as much work from EMD of late, at least until the past year or so. I don't know if they are still producing freight cars at that facility as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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