EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Plus the feds or provincial government are likely to put a buy in Canada clause into it as they want to keep business here.
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drum118
Superstar
The province has lost the Canadian content clause based on the current trade agreements the Feds have sign. If the Feds try to do the clause, it would go against the agreements it has sign as well.
Other than BBD, no other company would setup a plant to built LRV's here, other than assembly them, since there is no market in Canada at all.
Even with our weak dollar, makes no sense to do so based on who is power now in the US and who wants jobs there at all cost. Anyone that doesn't has a plant in the US and wants work there will setup a plant there than here.
CRRC and Hitachi rail are going after the world market very strong for LRV's now
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
so in other word we don't care about canadian companies anymore because a foreign one can do it for cheaper and we have trade agreements with these countries so we have to honor them Nice way of doing business.
pstogios
Senior Member
Sounds like an excellent way of doing business. Particularly when minding the public purse. Globalism is here; have you heard of it?
Or, do you want to stick with companies that are incompetent just because they are Canadian?
Been ther, done that. Got the t-shirt Andy it says "Bombardier is a disaster."
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
No but I think we should be concerned about losing skilled jobs to places with cheap labor. But hey if that's the way the world wants to work then maybe we should just close all manufacturers in Canada and fire all of the workers now.
drum118
Superstar
If one looks around today and compare it to what we had 100 years ago, it totally the opposite now.
Blue collar was in demands with white being very limited. Today its White collar in demand and blue being very reduce.
The amount of man hours and personal that went into making thing over the last century has shrunk 50% or more to not exist by have robotics and other technology to replace human.
We have never been good training skill people here to the point we go off shore to get them even today.
The field I started off in exist as a shell of what it used to be with 100's of 100,000's jobs gone and cities haft their size or just hanging on now. None of the companies or suppliers exist today that I dealt with and a reason for change of fields.
Technology keeps on changing and it will require less and less personal to do things in the coming decades. Moving from 2 man subway trains to one, replacing the fare booth at subway stations are a tip of examples.
What has not change is the low level paying jobs cause by lack of people willing to do the work. Some of it related to the low pay, but people thinking it below what they want to do as well being paid coming out of school.
Being around the block a few time, I know first hand that some so call skill people and companies are a joke and due to fail over time.
I can see the government helping companies during a recession, but not when thing are good. Sometimes there needs to be a helping hand for a short term if a company has run in to problems cause by outside issues, not poor management.
This not a Canadian thing, but world wide thing.
Having loosing a fair number of contracts over the years in the US due to the fact I had no office or plant in the city/State I was low bidder on because of the Sun Set Rule (must be setup with x employees), as it was to costly to setup for one contract and limited contract down the road. Its easy to understand why companies not willing to setup shop here today.
Then there is the dollar to be taken into consideration as were it is today and where it will be a year from now. Sure our dollar is weak, but will it remain that way or will it overtake the US dollar like it has done in the past a number of time??
I don't believe in job protection or keeping companies a float because we must do so to save jobs. It cost us money one way or another by doing so.
The World at onetime was protecting one's country to the point it now has to work with others to sell or buy since the market is so small or doesn't exist within ones country.
We are already seeing the fallout from the oil field and that going to mean lost of jobs and companies.
If we buy more new LRV's from the US or off shore fully built, we are only joining a long list of counties that does it today.
BBD bought Thunder Bay and Kingston for a song and recovery that money a number of times already.
BBD took on a contract knowing what was required of them from day one and decided to do it on the cheap side to the point they are loosing money instead of making a huge profit because they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar for poor workmanship and parts.
Blue collar was in demands with white being very limited. Today its White collar in demand and blue being very reduce.
The amount of man hours and personal that went into making thing over the last century has shrunk 50% or more to not exist by have robotics and other technology to replace human.
We have never been good training skill people here to the point we go off shore to get them even today.
The field I started off in exist as a shell of what it used to be with 100's of 100,000's jobs gone and cities haft their size or just hanging on now. None of the companies or suppliers exist today that I dealt with and a reason for change of fields.
Technology keeps on changing and it will require less and less personal to do things in the coming decades. Moving from 2 man subway trains to one, replacing the fare booth at subway stations are a tip of examples.
What has not change is the low level paying jobs cause by lack of people willing to do the work. Some of it related to the low pay, but people thinking it below what they want to do as well being paid coming out of school.
Being around the block a few time, I know first hand that some so call skill people and companies are a joke and due to fail over time.
I can see the government helping companies during a recession, but not when thing are good. Sometimes there needs to be a helping hand for a short term if a company has run in to problems cause by outside issues, not poor management.
This not a Canadian thing, but world wide thing.
Having loosing a fair number of contracts over the years in the US due to the fact I had no office or plant in the city/State I was low bidder on because of the Sun Set Rule (must be setup with x employees), as it was to costly to setup for one contract and limited contract down the road. Its easy to understand why companies not willing to setup shop here today.
Then there is the dollar to be taken into consideration as were it is today and where it will be a year from now. Sure our dollar is weak, but will it remain that way or will it overtake the US dollar like it has done in the past a number of time??
I don't believe in job protection or keeping companies a float because we must do so to save jobs. It cost us money one way or another by doing so.
The World at onetime was protecting one's country to the point it now has to work with others to sell or buy since the market is so small or doesn't exist within ones country.
We are already seeing the fallout from the oil field and that going to mean lost of jobs and companies.
If we buy more new LRV's from the US or off shore fully built, we are only joining a long list of counties that does it today.
BBD bought Thunder Bay and Kingston for a song and recovery that money a number of times already.
BBD took on a contract knowing what was required of them from day one and decided to do it on the cheap side to the point they are loosing money instead of making a huge profit because they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar for poor workmanship and parts.
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
There could be a Flexity or 2 on the 504 today, who knows ? Also, CLRV 4000 is on 504.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Final ratification is still years away for CETA, but your point still stands. Bombardier's Millhaven plant "building LRVs for all North America" might backfire on the investment with the present regime south of the border. http://www.thewhig.com/2016/12/08/bombardier-completes-expansion
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
I am now on the 4402 which is King to Dundas West.
pstogios
Senior Member
Not saying we should close "all" manufacturers in Canada. To keep it related to the topic of this thread: if said Canadian manufacturer fails on a public contract, then free market principles (not to mention stewarding public finances responsibly) dictates that manufacturer should not be rewarded for that failure. They should be punished. This will encourage said Canadian manufacturer to clean up their act.
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
4412, 4432 is now in service and is running on the 504 King.
WATCH 4432 on my YouTube channel :
WATCH 4432 on my YouTube channel :
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EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Just remember we can speculate all we want to about where the TTC should get it's next vehicle from but remember it's their choice and also their standards that need to be met. For example the TTC went with Orion for buses until it went out of business why because they were willing to meet the TTC's standards which for buses mean they have to have a stainless steel frame. We know that the first round of bidding for the new streetcars all of the bids were rejected because they didn't meet the standards the TTC requested. Was the made/ assembled in Canada a factor possibly but there were many other things in the bid too like for example they wanted a 100% low floor vehicle, they also have to be able to run using TTC Gauge, take tight corners around lops and be able to climb steep hills, among other things.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Not quite, it was the other way around. Siemens eventually withdrew their bid:
https://www.ttc.ca/News/2009/April/TTC_staff_recommend_Bombardier_for_new_streetcar_order.jsp
https://stevemunro.ca/2008/07/02/only-bombardier-bids-for-new-ttc-streetcars/
nfitz
Superstar
You are quoting the 2009 process there. The first round was in 2008. And the TTC did indeed reject two bids in July 2008. Steve Munro's article was premature. Siemens did indeed back out, Bombardier submitted the bizarre proposal to modify the curves on the streetcar network rather than make a car that could use the current network, and TRAM Power wasn't 100% low-floor (among other issues) See http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/streetcar-contract-stalled-as-ttc-rejects-bids-1.709339 and http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...upplementary_Reports/LF_LRV_Procurement__.pdf
They retendered it and in April 2009 had 2 bids. One from Bombardier for $993 million and one from Siemens for $1.526 billion. See https://www.thestar.com/business/2009/04/24/ttc_picks_bombardier_to_supply_streetcars.html and http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com.../Apr_27_2009/Reports/Commission_Report_Lo.pdf
It's all discussed in painful detail in 2008 and 2009 further up the thread.
steveintoronto
Superstar
And the TTC had to re-write the terms to get bids.
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