drum118
Superstar
4550 Has enter service on 501 (501A)
4543 GPS still has the car at Bathurst Loop and thats wrong.
4543 GPS still has the car at Bathurst Loop and thats wrong.
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nfitz
Superstar
The timestamp on that GPS location is about 10:20 this morning. Not so much wrong, as stale - if it was even real (which seems likely, given it's situated exactly where a car would sit on the tracks at Bathurst, behind other vehicles on the 511 platform).
lenaitch
Senior Member
As far as I know, TSB reports are published on their website. However, I'm not aware of any investigations that are held back; I only know what I read.
One thing that would have to be considered in discussion whether the TSB should investigate public road carrier/transit incidents is whether or not the federal government has jurisdiction (in addition to the obvious increase in staffing and related resources required). Are urban transit systems under federal or provincial authority? As far as I know, the TSB does not investigate rail incidents on the ONR. Any TSB investigation of urban transit and public road carrier incidents would be parallel to a police investigation since the TSB does not investigate fault. Given the scope of their investigations, which includes factors such as human dynamics, there would be a legal question whether a non-regulated employee (i.e. car driver) could be compelled to be investigated. Case law abounds regarding the sharing of information between mandated regulatory cooperation and evidence exchange between regulators and law enforcement. If a death is involved, we would now have the coroner and his legislation involved.
Given the depth and detail of their investigation, as evidenced by their reports, coupled with their perhaps timely but non-emergent response, expect lenghty public road closures.
drum118
Superstar
Yes the car was on the track early today and still showing it there now. If still there, how are the 511 buses servicing the station?? Last seen by the GPS was 10 hours ago..
Looks like 4550 didn't go into service this afternoon after all, as its sitting at Hillcrest now. Time frame is right for it to go into service and been here 10 days. Then you got 4549 that arrived 11 days before it sitting at the east end on a service track the last 30 hours.
klopsy
New Member
#4554 spotted at CPR Lambton Yard on June 12
drum118
Superstar
4575 Has enter service after 17 day on route 510 (kg510)
4552 is tracking
4550 was out testing last night
Bombardier safety system to prevent light rail collision, overspeed
4552 is tracking
4550 was out testing last night
Bombardier safety system to prevent light rail collision, overspeed
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crs1026
Superstar
4555 has shipped.
- Paul
- Paul
KevinT
Active Member
For the recent discussion about what sort of crash energy management is or isn't behind the panels of a Flexity, there's a good picture of the internals in this CTV news piece on the latest incident in Kitchener:
CTV Kitchener: https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/collision-between-car-lrt-snarls-traffic-in-kitchener-1.4465095
CTV Kitchener: https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/collision-between-car-lrt-snarls-traffic-in-kitchener-1.4465095
drum118
Superstar
Boy!!...Thats Quick...........4554 is tracking now
steveintoronto
Superstar
Lots of reports by TSB, here's one:
http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/9.562206/publication.html
Anyone can be compelled to be investigated by the CTSB if they are pertinent to a case file. It's in the enabling legislation.
In Canada, that is still overlapping and not clear. The Ottawa Bus Crash is a case of overlapping jurisdictions, and still not fully clarified as to who is assigned to what, and how evidence will be presented in court.
Which one? Even the military vs civilian authority delineation is murky in Canada.
In the case of the last Ottawa bus crash, after lengthy tussles, it was determined to be the OPS with assistance from the CTSB.
TSB says Transport Canada has much to do in terms of safety regulations on transit vehicles
As to the exceptional powers of the Board, here's the empowering Act:
Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-23.4/fulltext.html
Excellent heads up. The anti-climb device and absorption bar appears slightly lower on the K/W model than the TTC ones, ostensibly since it doesn't have to mate with the CLRV one (which caused a derailment of an Outlook when it was pushing a stalled CLRV), and that article makes two very valid points:
All three situations would have mitigated damage and danger with a reactive bumper as defined, tested and espoused by the US Federal Transit Agency, and used as a matter of course in much of Europe, and now a number of US cities, especially in mixed vehicular traffic.
I suspect the interest in this will be more acute in K/W than in Toronto for a number of reasons, even though Toronto, perhaps due to a much larger fleet and longer operation, has seen a number of derailments, albeit the recent King Street one is especially alarming.
Here's pics of the Kinkisharyo Phoenix cars with couplers, the absorptive bumper raised to show details similar to the K/W cars: (this was a decade ago, I'd say that's enough time to be operationally proven)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kinkisharyo
These are the earlier absorptive only type, and worked well from reports. The later designs are mechanically reactive, like air-bags, and have much greater travel and energy dissipative properties.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
This is exactly what is needed along with reactive systems as well as proactive for when the collision is unavoidable.
https://www.railway-technology.com/news/bombardier-introduces-light-rail-vehicle-safety-system/
It's featured in a number of the tech/engineering rail journals, but note how far ahead the systems are that utilize this:
"COMPAS enables the tram driver to utilise digital track data and visual odometry to operate the tram in pre-defined speed limits." For Toronto, even the communication with intersection lights is limited and crude by modern standards. And no budget to improve them.
Meantime, yet another authoritative publication on design safety for LRV/T from twelve years ago:
TRANSPORTATION RESEARCH CIRCULAR E-C112
Joint International Light Rail Conference A World of Applications and Opportunities April 9–11, 2006 St. Louis, Missouri
Sponsored by Transportation Research Board
American Public Transportation Association
International Union of Public Transport
January 2007
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/circulars/ec112.pdf Pg 74, 75[...]
Chapter continues at length with diagrams, photos and technical details.
Attachments
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steveintoronto
Superstar
And yet again, you make my argument. Your logic implies even a strong wind could have deflected the LRT to derail. I think you'd best read the studies.
He had absolutely no steering ability or braking beyond the automatic braking system that would have engaged. If he had steering, he would have kept it on-course for straight ahead, by far the safest tragectory, but of course, with the flanges out of the track (and a previous derailment the TTC put down to "leaves in the track groove" )(and someone had better think about that one!) there was no imparted directionality at all save for the limits of the articulation geometry stops.
Why are so many of you unconcerned with the elephant on the loose here? It was *out of contorl* until finally coming to a stop on a sidewalk thankfully empty at the time.
It was most likely completely preventable, as described in detail and many studies in the reports. Yes the collision would have happened, yes the passengers in the SUV would most likely still have been hurt, but the *severity* of the situation would have been far more controlled and mitigated, let alone the damage costs.
Yet another engineering research paper on the matter:
https://www.ijser.org/researchpaper/DESIGN-AND-DEVELOPMENT-OF-IMPACT-ENERGY-ABSORBING-BUMPER.pdf
[...continues with diagrams, photos, and detailed explanations for those that can read...]
Meantime real world proof:
http://www.kinkisharyo.com/projects/phoenix-az-valley-metro-rail-vmr/#phoenix
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nfitz
Superstar
Because it's pretty minor in the greater scheme of things. Dozens of people are run over by cars in Toronto every year on sidewalks and even in buildings. Some are even killed.
These units have been in operation now here for years, and I don't think there's even been a minor pedestrian injury from a derailing streetcar, let alone anything serious.
The root cause to the problem is the vehicle. We'll save more lives reducing vehicle speeds and banning SUVs and other vehicles that are too high, and more likely to kill rather than injure pedestrians, than we'll ever do worrying about this level of detail.
This isn't the droid you are looking for!
lenaitch
Senior Member
(I somehow screwed up the quote - hope it makes sense)
The TSB-ONR report was one of two on their website of reports back to 1991. I am aware that they can be requested to investigate by the non-federally regulated agency. They had a passenger train go on the ground in May 2018 and there is no indication that the TSB was involved.
I was not fully aware of the extent of their ability to compel cooperation. Tks
Regarding the Ottawa bus crash, I'm not sure of the source of the confusion. Regardless of whether OC Transit is provincially or federally regulated, I don't see how any incident of road transportation falls under the TSB's mandate. They might think they should be but that is a matter for the legislators. It seems they are assisting with their expertise, which is provided for under their Act, but they are assisting the police and/or the coroner and not exercising their authority. The police conduct fault (criminal) investigations. In that regard; i.e. 'going to court', it is clearly outside of the TSB's mandate. It is very common for parallel police and coroner investigations of the same incident, but information must be carefully managed if it is to have any value as court evidence. Information that is obtained under the authority of the Coroner's Act cannot simply be handed over to the criminal investigation. R vs. Colarusso is pretty much the benchmark in Ontario. Often, different police personnel will be assigned to the two aspects. In this regard, a coroner's investigation can be considered a regulatory investigation, which often compel parties to provide information. 'Compelled information' is pretty much tainted as evidence in a criminal investigation.
As for any murkiness between the TSB and the CAF, the Act is fairly clear. The military tends to act like a closed shop and I suspect much of that is two federal departments pissing at each other.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Number and intensity of railway accidents in Ontario
Page 8
Here is how ONR took the 2018 Polar Bear derailment seriously and looked to prevent further occurrences:
http://ontarionorthland.ca/sites/default/files/corporate-document-files/PBX-Investigation Report Summary.PDF
More actions are detailed in the report. They're taking the situation very seriously, as they should.
As I mentioned a number of posts back, the TTC knows that the tracks on King are in poor shape, I posted the City report on it, and the wear factor where they intersect with University could well be an exacerbating factor.
It could be as simple a cause as failure to clear the rail groove to sufficient depth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramway_track
This was the 'cause' given for the Flexity that derailed from pushing a stalled CLRV: Stuart Green: "...Some debris on the tracks from the rainfall overnight"
New TTC streetcar derails in downtown Toronto while pushing older streetcar
A new TTC streetcar went off the tracks as it was pushing a stalled streetcar Tuesday morning causing major traffic delays near King and Bathurst Streets.
https://globalnews.ca/video/2886106...owntown-toronto-while-pushing-older-streetcar
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