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I'm just looking forward to how the TTC will be crippling streetcar service even further after this incident. Streetcars already slow to a 10kkm/h crawl on ROW intersections, and the recent trend i've been seeing recently is that they've begun to crawl to a 10km/h crawl at all signalized intersections.

I wouldnt be surprised if they instituted a stop and proceed directive at all signalized intersections the way they like to mess with streetcar service. No wonder streetcars are only on time 55% of the time (as per the TTC's own stats).
 
It's presumptive to assume the SUV was travelling any faster than traffic does on University when it's not clogged. Don't forget that the damage displayed on both the SUV and LRV is the product of vectored forces, which tends to multiply the impact damage of soft metal shells.

The real question is how the Flexity got "knocked" so far off of directional impetus. And the answer is probably it wasn't. The front right wheel of the SUV *appears* to have gotten lodged under the frontal frame member of the Flexity. It wasn't the lateral impact that dislodged that tram so seriously, it was the wheel lodged under the frame member. The Flexity was *castored* laterally by the SUV front right wheel as well as by some imparted lateral inertia from the impact. Remember, the SUV shows lateral impact, the tram very little impact damage save for broken plastic skirts. The SUV would have been able to deflect the tram sideways with the engaged momentum.

The Flexity weighs over 48K-kg. Think about it. Most of the force was from forward motion of the LRV, the side of the SUV clearly shows that. It also shows a broken right axle arm with the wheel tilted outward, not inward, the opposite of what it would be if impacted without the top of the wheel being jammed under the LRV frame.

The front segment of the LRV *rode* that wheel to the right, and in doing so, lifted the front truck to derail itself where normally it wouldn't have budged laterally save for the wheel flanges of the front-most bogie hard against the inside of the rail-head.

Read the report I linked earlier. Or not.
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/IDEA/FinalReports/Transit/Transit77.pdf

What happened is a known issue with LRV's especially high-floor ones, but also on low-floor ones like the Flexity where some-one wasn't thinking when they placed the *fixed* hard bumper as high as they did. Ostensibly this was to clear the coupler, which btw, is how the bumper being developed attaches. This was an accident waiting to happen, and will again, most likely with grave consequences.
The vast majority of LRV accidents occur with motor vehicles and cyclists/pedestrians. Collisions where the LRV overrides an automobile are all too common, which can lead to negative consequences

The first cop cleared to make a comment to the press stated: (gist) "It's incredibly lucky pedestrians weren't hit or killed".

Think about that, and think about what King is supposed to be, and then consider that one of the abject safety shortcomings of the Flexity is easily fixed, a known and defined issue, and other manufacturers (Siemens) are not only participating, but fixes are being made available to all manufacturers, at least in North America. Many LRVs are headed back to the factory, it would be an excellent opportunity to adapt them.
There are approximately 1,000 high floor LRV cars in North America that could all benefit from this bumper system technology. They could be retrofitted quickly and brought up to modern road vehicle crashworthiness standards without the need for procuring entirely new cars with enhanced crash safety capabilities. The goal is to pursue these and other markets worldwide.

There is *no way* buses, for example, would be allowed on Cdn roads with a front-end design like we're putting on LRVs. Toronto is exceptional in using a design primarily meant by the German design team to be used on their own RoWs.

This will be a story in the Toronto press in a few days. Streetcars are now covered under the MoT provincial regs, not the Railway Act any more. It's past time for the road safety regulations to be applied. For the benefit of all concerned.

The research paper talks of the damage to pedestrians as much as it does vehicular road traffic. Again, think King Street, and what it's supposed to become. Today's accident was a very lucky warning.
[...]
190020

[...]

{{...the sound of crickets tapping their Presto Cards....}}
 
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I see this as a better reason why the should just ban all cars on King. Pedestrians won't get hit if they actually look both ways before jaywalking. Never jaywalk right after one streetcar passes in the nearside as another can be coming and hidden behind. I seen too many near misses.

There is *no way* buses, for example, would be allowed on Cdn roads with a front-end design like we're putting on LRVs. Toronto is exceptional in using a design primarily meant by the German design team to be used on their own RoWs.
There are tons of tram tracks in Germany and Europe in mix traffic. In fact they run them in pedestrian malls with tons of people walking on the tracks too. People are just educated to avoid the tracks when one is coming. The problem here is everyone is trying to beat the streetcars like it's their road.

There is no regulation or crash test needed for bus design in Canada. Transport Canada still haven't been able to develop any standards or even buy a bus frame for testing for that Ottawa DD bus that smashed a VIA train accident nearly 5 years ago. It's been an issue that couldn't be solved without funding in place.

Most German trams have a much rounder front. While other systems run with a coupler without a bumper. I don't think they weren't thinking but the TTC Flexity bumper is designed to minimize the damage associated with the frame and the coupling components underneath thus reduce the repair bill that taxpayers have to pay for it in no-fault incidents. The only way TTC can get money to repair it is to ask/sue the driver's insurance for it. Also note the Flexity Freedoms don't look like that.
 
^
[PDF]TRANSPORT CANADA BUS SAFETY ... - Transports Canada
https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/roadsafety/tp13713e.pdf
There are extensive federal safety standards for buses. For example, air braked ..... Department is completing this work in conjunction with the Ontario Ministry of.
Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations (C.R.C., c. 1038) - Transport Canada
www.tc.gc.ca/eng/acts-regulations/regulations-crc-c1038.htm

Feb 12, 2019 - Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations (C.R.C., c. 1038) - Transport Canada's Acts and Regulations.
Canada has standards, but they are inadequate:
Currently, this country’s safety standards for motor vehicles contain no requirements for frontal-impact, side-impact, rollover or crush protection for vehicles in excess of 26,000 pounds, which includes most transit buses.

“As a result, buses in this weight category can have different structural features that may not adequately protect the travelling public,” Fox wrote.
[...]
In an update published last year, the TSB reported that Transport Canada is searching for a bus shell for testing “but has not been successful.”

The statement from TSB pointing to Transport Canada’s failure to make buses safer comes amid calls — including from parents who lost children in the Humboldt Broncos junior hockey team bus crash — for the independent agency to investigate Friday’s crash.

The investigation, the group said in an open letter, is needed to make our overall transportation system safer.

Friday’s crash killed three people and injured many more. Those killed were identified by authorities Monday as Bruce Thomlinson, 56, Judy Booth, 57, and Anja Van Beek, 65.[...]
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/loca...lling-for-tsb-to-investigate-ottawa-bus-crash

For Ontario:
Regulations re bumpers

81. The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations requiring any type or class of commercial motor vehicle or trailer to be equipped with rear bumpers and prescribing the location and means of attachment of the bumpers and prescribing the specifications for the bumpers. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 81.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK146

https://books.google.ca/books?id=04z0Lw1qKiIC&pg=SA2-PA11&lpg=SA2-PA11&dq=EU+regulations+for+LRV+bumpers&source=bl&ots=rPegUUZtFS&sig=ACfU3U1IpyE-bfvEs3jyNjj6x8Lk264Tsg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLwYWDtuHiAhWCg-AKHfE5B7YQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=EU regulations for LRV bumpers&f=false

See also: http://www.trb.org/Publications/Blurbs/166970.aspx

Extensive searching last night indicates the TTC Flexity Outlook does not come equipped with a coupler like the Freedom does. All the more reason for the TTC to equip the Outlooks suitably for best practice for safety and ensured integrity.

More later, must run.
 
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It's presumptive to assume the SUV was travelling any faster than traffic does on University when it's not clogged. Don't forget that the damage displayed on both the SUV and LRV is the product of vectored forces, which tends to multiply the impact damage of soft metal shells.

The police have indicated that the SUV was speeding and ran a red light. That would also explain why it ended up over a hundred metres west of the impact site.

The real question is how the Flexity got "knocked" so far off of directional impetus. And the answer is probably it wasn't. The front right wheel of the SUV *appears* to have gotten lodged under the frontal frame member of the Flexity. It wasn't the lateral impact that dislodged that tram so seriously, it was the wheel lodged under the frame member. The Flexity was *castored* laterally by the SUV front right wheel as well as by some imparted lateral inertia from the impact. Remember, the SUV shows lateral impact, the tram very little impact damage save for broken plastic skirts. The SUV would have been able to deflect the tram sideways with the engaged momentum.

Simple - it was travelling at a good speed, too. Once the lead truck had been pushed off of the rails, the momentum from its forward progress coupled with the momentum from the side impact simply caused it to continue on its curving trajectory onto the sidewalk.

Read the report I linked earlier. Or not.
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/IDEA/FinalReports/Transit/Transit77.pdf

What happened is a known issue with LRV's especially high-floor ones, but also on low-floor ones like the Flexity where some-one wasn't thinking when they placed the *fixed* hard bumper as high as they did. Ostensibly this was to clear the coupler, which btw, is how the bumper being developed attaches. This was an accident waiting to happen, and will again, most likely with grave consequences.

The location of the bumper on the Flexities is dictated by the location of the anti-climber - which is dictated by its location on the legacy equipment. By the nature of its design and purpose as an anti-overriding device, it must be there.

It should be noted that the anticlimber is also located well above the floor on the Flexities.

The research paper talks of the damage to pedestrians as much as it does vehicular road traffic. Again, think King Street, and what it's supposed to become. Today's accident was a very lucky warning.

While I don't disagree with the paper's ideas and conclusions with regards to high-floor cars, in the case of pedestrians it's findings have no bearing on the situation in Toronto, at least with regards with the Flexity cars.

The Flexities are fully skirted. They are undoubtedly safer for pedestrians than the legacy cars are, with their exposed and swinging trucks, and huge overhang on curves.

Dan
 
While I don't disagree with the paper's ideas and conclusions with regards to high-floor cars, in the case of pedestrians it's findings have no bearing on the situation in Toronto, at least with regards with the Flexity cars.
I find your reasoning highly lacking. The evidence indicates otherwise, I'll detail more later.

The Flexities are fully skirted. They are undoubtedly safer for pedestrians than the legacy cars are, with their exposed and swinging trucks, and huge overhang on curves.
They've broken and separated in this instance and a number of others. They're either inadequate fibreglass or plastic.

Your recall of the "Shiner Skirts" and the reason for their need is absent. The height of the reinforced rail (cushioned or not, I've yet to find reference) at the front of the TTC Outlooks is too high as per the detailed reasoning of the experts I've quoted. The 'frontal gap' on the TTC Outlooks, even being a 'low floor' vehicle, is analogous to high floor ones.

The anti-riding device is neither here nor there as per this discussion other than the rail/beam/bar it's mounted on, which indicates by logic to then not be 'cushioned' for it to function as per purpose. You talk yourself in circles.

You state:
Once the lead truck had been pushed off of the rails
And how exactly did that happen if it was a frontal impact on the side of an SUV a fraction of the LRV's weight?

It was an over-ride type collision. That *lifted* the front section of the LRV thus allowing a force that otherwise wouldn't have been able to, to impart sideways inertia on the LRV since the flanges were no longer in their tracks. And that most likely prevented from a bumper as described by persons able to present a scientific case researching exactly that scenario.

This accident wasn't "a pedestrian" impact. It was with an SUV, and the impact marks left on its side in terms of nature and position are cause for concern. The right front wheel tilting outward as opposed to inward is very peculiar, and indicative of being jammed under the LRV frame/sub-chassis. "In the gap" as it were.

As as per @Steve X, King being a pedestrian mall or not, for some odd reason, until such time as the tracks are grade-separated, if and when, intersections with streets are unavoidable, apart from whether those motorists are in control of their vehicle or not.
 
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They've broken and separated in this instance and a number of others. They're either inadequate fibreglass or plastic.

That's what they are designed to do. Much easier and quicker to replace a piece of FRP than to try and do structural repairs to stainless steel.

Your recall of the "Shiner Skirts" and the reason for their need is absent. The height of the reinforced rail (cushioned or not, I've yet to find reference) at the front of the TTC Outlooks is too high as per the detailed reasoning of the experts I've quoted. The 'frontal gap' on the TTC Outlooks, even being a 'low floor' vehicle, is analogous to high floor ones.

I think that you are confusing what the Shiner Skirts are.

Specifically, they are the grey pieces of fibreglass that get installed below the anticlimbers of the CLRVs and ALRVs (front only on the Cs, front and rear on the As) to help prevent items (people, autos, etc.) from getting caught underneath the cars. That gap exists on the Cs as that was where the couplers used to be mounted. (The As were modified halfway through the design process to eliminate the couplers but they kept the original design and intent of the area. Behind the front skirt is a lifesaver. Behind the rear is the air tank.)

The new cars don't have Shiner Skirts, as they were added on to the CLRVs after they had been in service for some time. The Flexities are built from new with low-hanging skirts all around the vehicle.

The anti-riding device is neither here nor there as per this discussion other than the rail/beam/bar it's mounted on, which indicates by logic to then not be 'cushioned' for it to function as per purpose. You talk yourself in circles.

The anticlimber - a structural element - is fixed to the frame. Again, it has to be mounted higher than might otherwise be ideal because it needs to engage with the anticlimber of another streetcar. The "bumper" that mounts onto it has some measure of cushioning. In the event of a major impact between two streetcars, the "bumper" is designed to start absorbing the impact, then fail and break away allowing the anticlimber to engage the anticlimber of the other vehicle.

Dan
 
That's what they are designed to do. Much easier and quicker to replace a piece of FRP than to try and do structural repairs to stainless steel.
? That's exactly the point. There was no controlled impact. The plastic skirt tore away, and that's the extent of energy absorption on the LRV.

Where exactly was the impact controlled and absorptive?

Once again, the introductory paragraph of the bumper research project:
190084

190085

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/IDEA/FinalReports/Transit/Transit77.pdf

Much easier and quicker to replace a piece of FRP than to try and do structural repairs to stainless steel.
I see, so slap some new plastic on that Bad Boy and he's set to go again in your books.

I think not. Every pinion and articulated segment connection will have to be examined and with the slightest of deviation out of plumb, be replaced. Did you watch the vid of that machine being towed? It was quite damaged. I'd guess a major rebuild with it on alignment jigs. But we'll see.

Much easier and quicker to replace a piece of FRP than to try and do structural repairs to stainless steel
Sounds like something out of Doug Ford's office...
 
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Toronto Needs to take a page out of Andy Play Book for dealing with these blockages as well what is done for other systems. Within 10 minutes, the line is clear and the driver will have some big bills to pay to get their car back.
 
? That's exactly the point. There was no controlled impact. The plastic skirt tore away, and that's the extent of energy absorption on the LRV.


Where exactly was the impact controlled and absorptive?

Once again, the introductory paragraph of the bumper research project:
View attachment 190084
View attachment 190085
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/IDEA/FinalReports/Transit/Transit77.pdf


I see, so slap some new plastic on that Bad Boy and he's set to go again in your books.

I think not. Every pinion and articulated segment connection will have to be examined and with the slightest of deviation out of plumb, be replaced. Did you watch the vid of that machine being towed? It was quite damaged. I'd guess a major rebuild with it on alignment jigs. But we'll see.


Sounds like something out of Doug Ford's office...
You are insinuating that the results of a study that was conducted on a shorter HIGH FLOOR LRV would be applicable to a longer LOW FLOOR LRV which has a much different weight distribution, centre of gravity and impact energy distribution profile than the CAF SRV-I (California Class 200) that the study focused on.
 
You are insinuating that the results of a study that was conducted on a shorter HIGH FLOOR LRV would be applicable to a longer LOW FLOOR LRV which has a much different weight distribution, centre of gravity and impact energy distribution profile than the CAF SRV-I (California Class 200) that the study focused on.
I've already discussed that. Please read before jumping to concussions. It's also dealt with in detail in the report. The specifics of the design and research apply to the "gap" left below the solid frame height at the front of the LRV, which as @smallspy has confirmed, is the same as the C/ALRVs and thus the anti-climb pads being attached on each at that height.

Just read the report, quote where it counters any points I'm making, and perhaps we'll discuss it further.

And feel absolutely free to explain how an SUV of that size [weight approx 1,500 kg ] side impacted (albeit the exact vector of impact is yet to be clearly defined), an absolute fraction of the LRV weight [48,200 kg (106,300 lb)] can so freely cause such havoc?

For all the posters attempting to obfuscate the point of lack of engineering best practice in this instance, they further make the case of the instability of the vehicle in mixed traffic where collisions are inevitable unless measures are taken to to control and absorb collision impacts resulting in a far better outcome all around.

That LRV should have stayed on its tracks. A large truck at speed involved in a side impact on the LRV? Derailment would be likely. This wasn't. And if this is how susceptible the present vehicle impact geometry is, then the TTC and City have a serious problem. And that's just to fix the mechanical damage, not the societal ones. Like injury and death.
 
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I've already discussed that. Please read before jumping to concussions. It's also dealt with in detail in the report. The specifics of the design and research apply to the "gap" left below the solid frame height at the front of the LRV, which as @smallspy has confirmed, is the same as the C/ALRVs and thus the anti-climb pads being attached on each at that height.

Just read the report, quote where it counters any points I'm making, and perhaps we'll discuss it further.

And feel absolutely free to explain how an SUV of that size [weight approx 1.5kg ] side impacted (albeit the exact vector of impact is yet to be clearly defined), an absolute fraction of the LRV weight [48,200 kg (106,300 lb)] can so freely cause such havoc?

For all the posters attempting to obfuscate the point of lack of engineering best practice in this instance, they further make the case of the instability of the vehicle in mixed traffic where collisions are inevitable unless measures are taken to to control and absorb collision impacts resulting in a far better outcome all around.

That LRV should have stayed on its tracks. A large truck at speed involved in a side impact on the LRV? Derailment would be likely. This wasn't. And if this is how susceptible the present vehicle impact geometry is, then the TTC and City have a serious problem. And that's just to fix the mechanical damage, not the societal ones. Like injury and death.
Had the streetcar not derailed, the damage to the SUV would have been more severe and could have resulted in fatalities. Derailment in this case, is the better alternative. Applying research based on a high-floor vehicle (which in this case would not have derailed due to it's lower centre of gravity) to a low-floor vehicle which has a higher centre of gravity (because all the heavy equipment is on the roof) is absolutely absurd. A high-floor vehicle like the one in the report absolutely would need a crash energy management bumper for just this type of incident because the vehicle would be less likely to derail and therefore be more likely to reflect more of that crash energy back into the vehicle that crashed into it. By derailing, the streetcar took on some of the SUVs momentum and reduced the overall damage.
 
Had the streetcar not derailed, the damage to the SUV would have been more severe and could have resulted in fatalities. Derailment in this case, is the better alternative.
Is that a message from the Car Crowd? Give your head a shake...And I already discussed that two pages back. Do some math, starting with pedestrians, passengers and the swath a derailed five segment LRV cuts.

The fact is that very little of what unfolded the way it did should have. An investment in collision mitigation and controlled absorption will be a fraction of other costs. And just plain common-sense.
Had the streetcar not derailed, the damage to the SUV would have been more severe
You know, if you'd read the study, you'd realize that *all parties* are impacted less in a controlled absorptive collision. The frame members of the SUV would have had a more even load applied to them, the damage you see from the photos (and there's a lot more online, I suggest viewing them, and the 'the gap' clearly showing on the front of the LRV with the candy wrapper torn off) would be less crumpling of the door itself and the vehicle pushed aside more readily, both the LRV and the impacted SUV suffering far less consequence. And much, much more likely the LRV would have remained on the tracks.

It's all in the report, linked many times now. I suggest reading it.
 
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Shame we didn't design SUVs to prioritize protecting pedestrian's lives.

Pedestrian deaths hit 28-year high, suggesting SUV boom raises safety risks
It has very similar parallels, and what the article doesn't discuss but the vid does, is the height of impact. (Edit: And the lack of any absorptive or mitigating design at that height. Bumpers? Yes, above that? No.) To all accessing fitz' link, watch the video! The LRV bumper study/design paper discusses pelvic injuries as having to be mitigated.
[...]
Comparing all the scenarios analyzed and the resulting injury measures, it can be concluded that the bumper system adapted to the Sacramento RT CAF LRV significantly reduces struck vehicle occupant injury, compared with the current configuration without a bumper. The analysis indicates remarkable injury reduction potential with the bumper system. For example, the probability of serious injury was reduced by 66% with the bumper. An overall improvement in serious pelvic injury probability of 25% was demonstrated. Average serious thoracic trauma probability was dramatically reduced by 91%.[...]

And in Canada, there's even less protection than there is in the US. Getting back to bus regs (and @Steve X had a point, I just countered the context he employed it in, implying there are no regs for buses in Can, there are, but wholly inadequate) you have *vastly more protection* in an SUV or a sedan for that matter than you do in a bus.(School buses, oddly enough, are covered separately, but a whole horrifying discussion in itself) Or evidently, in an LRV careening off the rails after hitting an object less than a 1/30 of its weight.

The LRV *should not* have come off the rails.

And the SUV factor is just as high or higher in Canada:

Our infatuation with SUVs is putting everyone else on the road at risk
Studies show that larger, heavier vehicles may be safe for occupants but are killing more people in collisions than ever before
by LORRAINE SOMMERFELD | AUGUST 27, 2018
[...]
In Canada, which closely follows on the heels of most American regulatory action, you can’t ascertain if a fatality was caused by a compact car or a behemoth SUV. Crashes are crashes, vehicles counted only as passenger or commercial. Stats are broken down by age group, road user type (driver, passenger, pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist), province, age and seatbelt usage.
[...]
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/o...-is-putting-everyone-else-on-the-road-at-risk
 
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