[W. K. Lis]

From link.

TTC concedes too many Presto readers are failing

Five to six per cent of the devices on Toronto transit aren’t working at any given time — far more than previously reported. Officials say the wrinkles will be ironed out soon.

 

[steveintoronto]

From link.

TTC concedes too many Presto readers are failing

Five to six per cent of the devices on Toronto transit aren’t working at any given time — far more than previously reported. Officials say the wrinkles will be ironed out soon.

[...]Because the automatic detection system isn’t always reliable, the TTC had workers check the readers in person last week, and plans to test readers on buses as well. According to Upfold, it’s not clear what’s wrong with the devices, which allow customers to pay their fare by tapping a prepaid card. But he said it’s probably a software problem.
[...]
Hollis said the unique properties of Toronto’s streetcars have posed unexpected problems for the card readers. The vehicles operate using a different type of power supply than buses, he said, and the rails can cause “vibration issues.”
[...]
But transit watcher Steve Munro argued that Presto deployment has been “poorly thought out.” He said out-of-service readers are just one problem — users have also complained of the devices charging them the wrong amount.

Munro asserted that the decision not to make Presto available across the whole system at the same time, coupled with the glitches, are undermining public confidence in the fare card and discouraging people from using it.

“It’s a deterrent, in that the fact that it doesn’t work all the time is no secret,” he said.
[...]

The problem is software, not hardware. For someone of Hollis' standing, he'd best get the story straight. And the software is still glitchy as hell on GO. I have a concession on my card, and this problem has now happened *yet again* after being corrected by phoning in many times over the years: When the tap-on glitches (which may be a hardware issue) and you have to tap again, the software often reads that as "Auto Adjustment - Missed Tap Off"
which is an issue in itself to straighten out by having to phone in, (which I did, and still waiting for them to get back to me as promised over a week ago), but it also defeats your concession, so you pay full fare for the entire trip.

All the excuses in the world from the likes of Hollis don't undo the fact that Presto isn't just buggy, it isn't being fixed even after repeated incidents of algorithm dysfunction being reported.

Update: Just got an email informing me (over a week later) that my claim for the one day's glitch has been remediated. I get $22.44 back on that. What they haven't addressed are the three other occurrences of being charged full fare for one stop with no concession when transferring to UPX at Union. The software not only doesn't recognize it as a continual trip, it also doesn't recognize the concession.
Oh Lordy, Lordy, Lordy....

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the TTC had just gone with 2-hour transfers instead of their " Valid at transfer points on day of issue for a one-way continuous trip, except on the 512 St. Clair route where they allow you to travel for up to two hours", it would be much, much more easier to program the software.

 

[cplchanb]

It's actually quite comical but unexpected to see TorStar quoting both entities once again blaming each other. I'm really perplexed why they can't bury the hatchet after
years of infighting. It's basically like the libs and cons...They bicker and disagree just because at the expense of the common people

 

[steveintoronto]

If the TTC had just gone with 2-hour transfers instead of their " Valid at transfer points on day of issue for a one-way continuous trip, except on the 512 St. Clair route where they allow you to travel for up to two hours", it would be much, much more easier to program the software.

*Especially in lieu* of knowing that Presto was going to be buggy! The two hour transfer makes life easier and the algorithm *so much simpler* no matter how it is applied, and therefore much more immune to being misread by both humans and machines alike. The fear on the TTC's part is loss of revenue, but I suspect, as do others, that they end-up shooting their foot off (and they only had one to begin with) by being so obstinate.

Penny wise, Pound foolish, cash or Presto. They'd actually *attract more riders* by doing the two hour transfer and offset any of the losses they fear. It's like buying a two hour pass.

 

[Steve X]

*Especially in lieu* of knowing that Presto was going to be buggy! The two hour transfer makes life easier and the algorithm *so much simpler* no matter how it is applied, and therefore much more immune to being misread by both humans and machines alike. The fear on the TTC's part is loss of revenue, but I suspect, as do others, that they end-up shooting their foot off (and they only had one to begin with) by being so obstinate.

Penny wise, Pound foolish, cash or Presto. They'd actually *attract more riders* by doing the two hour transfer and offset any of the losses they fear. It's like buying a two hour pass.

How would you know if that's going to work? They projected a $20m expense for doing that. If people take advantage of it, it might cost them more. Running additional vehicles to hold up the demand cost more, especially if it's a free ride. With a 2 hour period, everyone would run their errands more quickly and tied it into their commute. Yes TTC wants higher ridership, but in off peak hours where buses are already running with tons of room.

I don't expect this to change till presto is fully implemented with tons of real live data from the presto system. TTC would be able to more accurately measure their lost before moving to 2 hour transfers.

 

[steveintoronto]

How would you know if that's going to work? They projected a $20m expense for doing that. If people take advantage of it, it might cost them more.

"Projected"...based on assumptions. It's worked and worked well in many other cities. Find me one reference outside of the TTC that supports their "projection".

[...]
TTC Chair Karen Stintz said the transit authority isn’t in the position to implement time-based transfers but wants to be ready to do it soon to make implementation of the Presto fare cards easier.

The TTC now has a “continuous trip” transfer system which allows riders to change transit vehicles during one trip in one direction. Under a time-based transfer system, transfer would allow riders to potentially re-enter the system within a set time limit.

TTC CEO Andy Byford said transit officials should be able to report back in a few months on the possibility of a time-based transfer that could be in place across the entire system.

“It is not the sort of thing that we would rush — you’ve got to get it right,” Byford said.

TTC officials estimate an “unrestricted-use” time-based transfer valid for two hours would cost the TTC $20 million a year in lost revenue while a 90-minute transfer would cost around $12 million a year.

“We don’t have $20 million to spare,” Byford said. [...]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/28/ttc-wont-rush-time-based-transfers

Meantime:

[...]
Updated March 11, 2016 at 11:00 am:

The estimate of lost revenue is overstated by at least 100% based on the following calculation:

• 4% of customers take two trips within two hours.
• With 545 million annual trips, 4% is 21.8 million.
• Half of these would now be “free” or 10.9 million.
• At an average fare of about $2, the “lost” revenue would be about $20m.
• However, over half of all adult trips are paid for with passes which allow unlimited riding. Therefore at least half of the “lost” revenue is based on trips taken using passes today.
• The correct “cost” of a two-hour transfer should be cited as no more than $10 million.

This puts the two-hour transfer in the same ballpark as free rides for children.

https://stevemunro.ca/2016/03/11/what-is-the-ttc-policy-on-fares/

Now add in the cost of glitches the TTC is now seeing by being so obstinate. They could have saved that $10M by adopting the time-based transfers (as Metrolinx does) so that when the TTC and GO merge their distance based fare structure, it's far more seamless than retaining the present archaic approach.

 

[DSC]

Now add in the cost of glitches the TTC is now seeing by being so obstinate. They could have saved that $10M by adopting the time-based transfers (as Metrolinx does) so that when the TTC and GO merge their distance based fare structure, it's far less seamless than retaining the present archaic approach.

Though I am very strongly in favour of time-based transfers as they will certainly make the programing simpler and the lives of enforcement staff and customers better I am not sure that moving to them will help the current Presto situation which is being explained as the readers not properly communicating to "HQ", the streetcar power supply being different (a surprise?) and because vibration is a problem.
I also think that the introduction (or reintroduction) of fare-by-distance to the TTC is neither connected nor very likely and I doubt Council would agree to "the TTC and GO merge[ing] their distance based fare structure . "

 

[steveintoronto]

I also think that the introduction (or reintroduction) of fare-by-distance to the TTC is neither connected nor very likely and I doubt Council would agree to "the TTC and GO merge[ing] their distance based fare structure . "

It's inevitable.
Perhaps some consideration on the cost of the scheduled "tapping off" hardware would be in order? Now what could that possibly all be about if not a distance based fare structure?

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the TTC were to greatly increase fares (because of the Tory budget cut demands), they should implement the 2-hour transfers, at the same time.

 

[steveintoronto]

If the TTC were to greatly increase fares (because of the Tory budget cut demands), they should implement the 2-hour transfers, at the same time.

That at first seems contraindicated, until realizing that every time fares are raised, ridership decreases, so it's a zero-sum game, so if DSC's claim is correct, 'they'll gain more riders, but lose farebox return', your proposal would be a way to neutralize that. In the event, I don't see how a two hour transfer (buying time, not a destination) would further load the system during rush hour. If anything, it would tend to spread it out.

 

[smably]

I believe discussion about a switch to two-hour transfers is on hold pending the Metrolinx regional fare integration study. That's another whole can of worms in itself.

 

[Jaye101]

If the TTC were to greatly increase fares (because of the Tory budget cut demands), they should implement the 2-hour transfers, at the same time.

The TTC and And Byford were pushing for 2-hour transfers and POP across the system and Council voted against, AFAIK.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The TTC and And Byford were pushing for 2-hour transfers and POP across the system and Council voted against, AFAIK.

Do you have a vote list of who for and against at council?

 

[adHominem]

Five gates out of service in Dufferin this morning; there's usually one or two down, but five seems a bit much. Have people noticed whether other stations are more reliable than this?