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As opposed to sympathy for perps? These ⭐kids⭐ launched fireworks inside a packed bus. At some point you gotta make an example out of someone to scare off others inclined to similar acts. And the parents need to get charged.

There is an in-between space.

One where you can support:

a) Charging/Arresting/Holding Accountable those who commit a criminal act
b) Support maintaining public order, and upholding the law

***

But equally:

c) You can understand that the offender will be released back into society at some point, no matter how serious the offense (baring a 'dangerous offender' designation) and that it behooves
us to make sure that offender is more grateful to a system that helped put them on the right path and finds themselves capable of finishing school and getting a job; vs just having a giant chip on their
shoulder and being incapable of self-support.

d) Be aware that culpability has limits, and this is exceptionally important in the case of a child if you are also saying that they are a young adult, capable of being held responsible for their own actions, and the contradiction of then also
holding their parents, or teachers or bosses also responsible. Which is it? If the teen's parents are responsible shouldn't the child be not criminally responsible?

****

To be clear, I am absolutely concerned that there maybe a problem w/parenting in the case of a criminally misbehaving child; but unless the parent provided the child a fire work/weapon, instructed them to get it and how, provided the money etc. I don't see a basis for criminal charges. In the above case, one might face some type of charge akin to 'conspiracy' , ' aid and abet' ; or 'Criminal Facilitation'.

The problem, at law with holding a parent responsible where the above is not the case is not merely one of trying to assign legal responsibility for one act to two or more different people where the second person was not involved;
Its that in general, a criminal offense requires mens rea, and acteus reus. The Guilty Mind' and 'The Guilty Action'.

So you need to establish the the parent either did something criminal/facilitated same, but also that they did so knowing what the effect would be. (A reasonable person test may apply in terms of what one would expect someone to know)

****

I'm not a bleeding heart when it comes to dealing with those who behave violently; but I am stickler for the idea that legal principles matter, consistency matters, and so does pragmatism. The latter meaning that the principle goal of the criminal justice system is not suppose to be punishment, but rather prevention of recurrence.

That may necessarily involve some measure of punishment, but its the end goal that is paramount.

****

As apart from any actual criminal action by a parent; i think 'problematic parenting' or their potential of same ought, in such circumstances to be considered by a social worker home visit and parental interview, along with interviewing the child, as legal circumstances permit.

If the issue, for instance were a single parent, working 2 jobs, incapable of literally supervising their teen, the consideration might be how we could help that parent obtain better paying employment, or providing an afterschool program or some other form of supervision of their child for extended hours.

If the issue were that the parent had good intentions, but didn't have good instincts or knowledge on how to handle discipline issues, perhaps there's a course, or resources that could be provided them.

If the parent is clearly the problem (criminal element, serious addiction issues, abusive); they should be held accountable for their own conduct in that regard, and in the most extreme situations we may need to find the child a different home.
Though as that rarely goes well, we should do that as a last resort.

****

A final thought though.........Former PM Chretien, who most considered a decent, law-abiding sort on the whole..........had one child who was arrested while he was PM (the child by then was an adult). Should we have 'charged' the sitting PM because his child was a criminal?


Read the story and squirm a bit. There's moral ambiguity there. We don't know how that child ended up that way; but presumably charging Jean Chretien would not have been a legally viable or just answer in respect of his son's conduct.
 
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There is an in-between space.

One where you can support:

a) Charging/Arresting/Holding Accountable those who commit a criminal act
b) Support maintaining public order, and upholding the law

***

But equally:

c) You can understand that the offender will be released back into society at some point, no matter how serious the offense (baring a 'dangerous offender' designation) and that it behooves
us to make sure that offender is more grateful to a system that helped put them on the right path and finds themselves capable of finishing school and getting a job; vs just having a giant chip on their
shoulder and being incapable of self-support.

d) Be aware that culpability has limits, and this is exceptionally important in the case of a child if you are also saying that they are a young adult, capable of being held responsible for their own actions, and the contradiction of then also
holding their parents, or teachers or bosses also responsible. Which is it? If the teen's parents are responsible shouldn't the child be not criminally responsible?

****

To be clear, I am absolutely concerned that there maybe a problem w/parenting in the case of a criminally misbehaving child; but unless the parent provided the child a fire work/weapon, instructed them to get it and how, provided the money etc. I don't see a basis for criminal charges. In the above case, one might face some type of charge akin to 'conspiracy' , ' aid and abet' ; or 'Criminal Facilitation'.

The problem, at law with holding a parent responsible where the above is not the case is not merely one of trying to assign legal responsibility for one act to two or more different people where the second person was not involved;
Its that in general, a criminal offense requires mens rea, and acteus reus. The Guilty Mind' and 'The Guilty Action'.

So you need to establish the the parent either did something criminal/facilitated same, but also that they did so knowing what the effect would be. (A reasonable person test may apply in terms of what one would expect someone to know)

****

I'm not a bleeding heart when it comes to dealing with those who behave violently; but I am stickler for the idea that legal principles matter, consistency matters, and so does pragmatism. The latter meaning that the principle goal of the criminal justice system is not suppose to be punishment, but rather prevention of recurrence.

That may necessarily involve some measure of punishment, but its the end goal that is paramount.

****

As apart from any actual criminal action by a parent; i think 'problematic parenting' or their potential of same ought, in such circumstances to be considered by a social worker home visit and parental interview, along with interviewing the child, as legal circumstances permit.

If the issue, for instance were a single parent, working 2 jobs, incapable of literally supervising their teen, the consideration might be how we could help that parent obtain better paying employment, or providing an afterschool program or some other form of supervision of their child for extended hours.

If the issue were that the parent had good intentions, but didn't have good instincts or knowledge on how to handle discipline issues, perhaps there's a course, or resources that could be provided them.

If the parent is clearly the problem (criminal element, serious addiction issues, abusive); they should be held accountable for their own conduct in that regard, and in the most extreme situations we may need to find the child a different home.
Though as that rarely goes well, we should do that as a last resort.

****

A final thought though.........Former PM Chretien, who most considered a decent, law-abiding sort on the whole..........had one child who was arrested while he was PM (the child by then was an adult). Should we have 'charged' the sitting PM because his child was a criminal?


Read the story and squirm a bit. There's moral ambiguity there. We don't know how that child ended up that way; but presumably charging Jean Chretien would not have been a legally viable or just answer in respect of his son's conduct.
I've already sort of mentioned this before but in the case of a minor being charged, the court will likely leave enforcement of the child up to the parents, which could result in the parents being charged if something happened a second time.
 
I've already sort of mentioned this before but in the case of a minor being charged, the court will likely leave enforcement of the child up to the parents, which could result in the parents being charged if something happened a second time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

A court cannot hold a parent responsible for conduct they didn't commit, irrespective of how many times a child committed same.

What a court may do is impose conditions on bail pending a trial, and yes a parent may be responsible, in part, for upholding those conditions, but the penalty there is the revocation of bail (the child is returned to custody) and the parent is on the hook for the bail money.

If the child is released into the custody of the parent (pending trial) without bail; a breach of those conditions still has the same primary remedy, the child is returned to custody as they were 'conditionally released'.

As the parent is not the subject of a bail or recognizance order, the parent can't really be subject to a penalty for breaching such an order; except where that breach constitutes a criminal act in its own right.

****

If we're talking about how any penalty is dealt with upon conviction, the court would similarly enforce a non-custodial sentence, by taking the child into custody if the conditions were breached. Only if the parent were compelled to be a surety or obtain a surety in respect of any conditions could I see a penalty imposed on the parent for a breach; and that penalty would be financial.

I can't work out what you would actually charge a parent with; or anyone providing a home for a non-custodial sentence if the conditions of same were breached.

****

1685803495222.png

1685803546023.png

****


1685803666289.png


From: https://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Conditional_Sentence_Breaches

Specifically as it pertains to youth, from the Youth Criminal Justice Act:

1685803932918.png


 
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The craziness continues. Some guy randomly attacks a passenger on a bus.

It was reported that the victim was standing on board an eastbound TTC bus near the front doors, while the suspect was sitting near the rear exit doors.
“As the bus came to a stop at Kennedy Road, with no provocation, the suspect attacked the victim putting him in a choke hold and causing injuries,” police said in a press release.


 
This was a thing back then too. Remember when they used to blast classical music at Kennedy Station to get youths to move along?
Time to bring back Bach, Beethoven, and the Boys!

It works wonders!

Better yet, a large amount of classical music is in the public domain, which means that the TTC does not need to pay a cent in royalty fees to play them.

The TTC could advertise the Toronto Symphony Orchestra as well.
 
Time to bring back Bach, Beethoven, and the Boys!

It works wonders!

Better yet, a large amount of classical music is in the public domain, which means that the TTC does not need to pay a cent in royalty fees to play them.

The TTC could advertise the Toronto Symphony Orchestra as well.

No No No.. what we need is the sex pistols or perhaps psychostick.
 
The Agenda for next week's TTC meeting is up, I am skimming it as I type.

First item up for note is from the CEO's report:

1685998332443.png

And

1685998424036.png


And

In respect of the E-Bus trials:
1685998590785.png


1685998627964.png




From the Financial Reports, we get this non-news:

1685999221856.png



Under the Major Projects Report we find:


- King Station Concourse Expansion and Second Exit have achieved 30% design

- Spadina Station Streetcar Platform Extension is at 100% design

- In respect of Line 2 ATC:

1685999575540.png
 
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I see the report on QQE is not on this month schedule as per the public meeting notice and noting new for pushing it down the road a delay tactic.
 
Tempted to put this in the Ontario Line thread, LOL; you'll see why:

1686001688479.png


A couple of minutes of sleuthing.........the 'sinkhole' is at Degrassi/Queen......

Right beside where Mx is set to begin work shortly to widen the rail bridge over Queen St for the Ontario Line......

****

Must have been a small sinkhole, service apparently resumed 41M ago.
 
There's something up at Queen & Ontario too (outside the famous Kim's Convenience). Though I'm not certain it's the same thing. I did notice yesterday something that looked like a very large quantity of paint had spilled all over the road here (like hundreds of litres), though I wouldn't expect they would need to actually dig up the concrete to clean up a spill like that, if that's what it was, I'm not sure.


IMG_20230605_193400.jpg
 

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