[T3G]

I can't understand your argument at all

Feel free to reread my post, then.

you make it sound like it's something that is extremely hard to do.

No, that's not actually what I said.

You said:

It's so much easier to check your phone then to look for some stupid screen somewhere in a shelter to find out information you can from your phone.

To which I said:

Hard to fathom how unlocking your phone, opening your app, hoping it works, and then finding your route information from the list, all under the presumption that you have internet connection, is easier than looking up at the sign and reading the information off of it

If you are going to argue that tilting one's neck upwards is a difficulty, it must therefore be argued that going to the trouble of opening the app you're using, and finding the route you're looking for, is several magnitudes more difficult.

What do you think people are going to do if there is no information screen available or it's not working?

In that case, they have no choice but to engage in alternatives. But that's the nature of life - when something doesn't work, alternatives must be used. Fortunately, in civilized cities with civilized transit systems, failures of this nature are rare. At any rate, the fact that something CAN go wrong is not actually an argument against having it exist in the first place. Otherwise, you could very well go ahead and argue we shouldn't even bother having a transit system, since sometimes subways and buses and trams break down, and in that case it's inconvenient to have to get off and use alternatives.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Feel free to reread my post, then.


No, that's not actually what I said.

You said:


To which I said:


If you are going to argue that tilting one's neck upwards is a difficulty, it must therefore be argued that going to the trouble of opening the app you're using, and finding the route you're looking for, is several magnitudes more difficult.


In that case, they have no choice but to engage in alternatives. But that's the nature of life - when something doesn't work, alternatives must be used. Fortunately, in civilized cities with civilized transit systems, failures of this nature are rare. At any rate, the fact that something CAN go wrong is not actually an argument against having it exist in the first place. Otherwise, you could very well go ahead and argue we shouldn't even bother having a transit system, since sometimes subways and buses and trams break down, and in that case it's inconvenient to have to get off and use alternatives.

I read your post but I think you are overthinking things just for the sake of wanting to argue with someone who you don't argue with.

Personally when I'm at an unfamiliar transit stop i check my phone way before I start looking around for a sign mostly because I'm already using an app like city mapper or transit to give me directions to where I'm going to.

 

[T3G]

read your post but I think you are overthinking things just for the sake of wanting to argue with someone who you don't argue with.

Conjecture. Your speculation as to my motivation for posting is neither here nor there.

Personally when I'm at an unfamiliar transit stop i check my phone way before I start looking around for a sign mostly because I'm already using an app like city mapper or transit to give me directions to where I'm going to.

Who said anything about the stop being unfamiliar? What if you are intimately familiar with the stop, but you want to know when the next vehicle is leaving that stop, as many transit users do?

NB: I have never been to a surface transit stop where I've had to "look around" for a sign. Its presence has always been self evident.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Conjecture. Your speculation as to my motivation for posting is neither here nor there.


Who said anything about the stop being unfamiliar? What if you are intimately familiar with the stop, but you want to know when the next vehicle is leaving that stop, as many transit users do?

NB: I have never been to a surface transit stop where I've had to "look around" for a sign. Its presence has always been self evident.

Whatever I've made my arguments and so have you i just don't agree with you and you don't agree with me so what's the point of trying to convince eachother that we are wrong in the way we are thinking.

 

[max]

I can't understand your argument at all you make it sound like it's something that is extremely hard to do. What do you think people are going to do if there is no information screen available or it's not working? You're post is the wrong attitude to take as well.

For some people it is hard. You and I may have the skills to operate the technology, but I definitely know people who can't operate a smartphone or send a text. Such people may be a minority, but they deserve access to the same information as the rest of us. The TTC is a public agency, and it's my belief that they have the responsibility to serve the public and meet them where they are.

Also, as @T3G noted, looking up at a screen is a lot easier than having to get all the way to the point where you can find the exact stop you need in an app. I know I've done it plenty of times and it certainly isn't that quick. Should someone's hands be occupied by carrying items, then it's even more of an annoyance that they have to grab their phone to get this information.

 

[Northern Light]

I can't understand your argument at all you make it sound like it's something that is extremely hard to do. What do you think people are going to do if there is no information screen available or it's not working? You're post is the wrong attitude to take as well.

1) There are actually people in our City who don't have cell phones.

The most recent data on this point comes from a survey published last year by Pew Research:

From: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/...-social-media-use-in-advanced-economies-2022/


Note that in Canada, you have 11% of adults with no cell phone, and 4% with a non-smart (flip) phone.


2) Not every smartphone-owning person has that phone on their person at all times (admittedly most do); but sometimes that phone is low/no power, and sometimes has poor reception/connectivity.


3) In a connected region and world, there are countless transit providers, not every app covers every provider, and many people shift within different systems without having an app available for each and every system they may encounter.


4) Then you get to @T3G 's points, that depending on one's phone, where it is on your person, or in your bags/stuff, and how you're apps are set up, it can take anywhere from a few seconds to 90 seconds to access information that could simply be staring you in the face on a screen with a zero second delay.


The cost of deploying screens at surface stops is relatively low. We're talking $500 installed per stop or less with a good bulk contract. (under $2,000,000), that's a rounding error in the TTC's capital budget.

PS, I got that number by looking up what it would cost me to buy the display, and I can find them for $200USD on Alibaba when you buy just 10. One, must, however, add the cost of install.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

For some people it is hard. You and I may have the skills to operate the technology, but I definitely know people who can't operate a smartphone or send a text. Such people may be a minority, but they deserve access to the same information as the rest of us. The TTC is a public agency, and it's my belief that they have the responsibility to serve the public and meet them where they are.

Also, as @T3G noted, looking up at a screen is a lot easier than having to get all the way to the point where you can find the exact stop you need in an app. I know I've done it plenty of times and it certainly isn't that quick. Should someone's hands be occupied by carrying items, then it's even more of an annoyance that they have to grab their phone to get this information.

1) There are actually people in our City who don't have cell phones.

The most recent data on this point comes from a survey published last year by Pew Research:

View attachment 498611

From: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/...-social-media-use-in-advanced-economies-2022/


Note that in Canada, you have 11% of adults with no cell phone, and 4% with a non-smart (flip) phone.


2) Not every smartphone-owning person has that phone on their person at all times (admittedly most do); but sometimes that phone is low/no power, and sometimes has poor reception/connectivity.


3) In a connected region and world, there are countless transit providers, not every app covers every provider, and many people shift within different systems without having an app available for each and every system they may encounter.


4) Then you get to @T3G 's points, that depending on one's phone, where it is on your person, or in your bags/stuff, and how you're apps are set up, it can take anywhere from a few seconds to 90 seconds to access information that could simply be staring you in the face on a screen with a zero second delay.


The cost of deploying screens at surface stops is relatively low. We're talking $500 installed per stop or less with a good bulk contract. (under $2,000,000), that's a rounding error in the TTC's capital budget.

PS, I got that number by looking up what it would cost me to buy the display, and I can find them for $200USD on Alibaba when you buy just 10. One, must, however, add the cost of install.

So what do you want me to say that I agree with you that we need to spend money that the TTC and city don't have on installing signs at every stop? I really don't care either way. I understand that not everyone has cell phones.

 

[Northern Light]

So what do you want me to say that I agree with you that we need to spend money that the TTC and city don't have on installing signs at every stop? I really don't care either way. I understand that not everyone has cell phones.

You can have whatever policy preference you wish.

What I want is for you to understand that other people have different preferences for entirely legitimate reasons.

You should consider those with an open mind, but if it doesn't change your point of view, that's fine. But your point of view does not de-legitimize anyone else's.

 

[T3G]

It's really, really hard to take seriously the idea that the city is broke when they seem to have no issue with the thought of spending $9m+ on the completely frivolous renaming of Dundas Street. If Northern Light's estimation of 2 mil for a bulk contract is correct, that would mean they'd be able to make the purchase and still have several mil left over. Hell, if the costs doubled, or if the number of stops doubled, it would still cost less than the proposed renaming of Dundas Street.

 

[Northern Light]

It's really, really hard to take seriously the idea that the city is broke when they seem to have no issue with the thought of spending $9m+ on the completely frivolous renaming of Dundas Street. If Northern Light's estimation of 2 mil for a bulk contract is correct, that would mean they'd be able to make the purchase and still have several mil left over. Hell, if the costs doubled, or if the number of stops doubled, it would still cost less than the proposed renaming of Dundas Street.

Knowing the City/TTC, they would manage to at least triple what it should cost; but yes, that would still be cheaper than renaming Dundas. LOL

 

[DSC]

The cost of deploying screens at surface stops is relatively low. We're talking $500 installed per stop or less with a good bulk contract. (under $2,000,000), that's a rounding error in the TTC's capital budget.

PS, I got that number by looking up what it would cost me to buy the display, and I can find them for $200USD on Alibaba when you buy just 10. One, must, however, add the cost of install.

Of course, apparently like the TTC, you forgot to include $$ for maintenance! :->

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

You can have whatever policy preference you wish.

What I want is for you to understand that other people have different preferences for entirely legitimate reasons.

You should consider those with an open mind, but if it doesn't change your point of view, that's fine. But your point of view does not de-legitimize anyone else's.

I do understand that but for some reason people want to twist what I'm saying to something bad or come up with all kinds of reasons why having a different opinion is something that is wrong.

 

[DSC]

I do understand that but for some reason people want to twist what I'm saying to something bad or come up with all kinds of reasons why having a different opinion is something that is wrong.

HAVING a different opinion is certainly not wrong - though the opinion itself may be!

 

[DSC]

Yet another example of how TTC wastes $$ (or at least fails to show it cares!) Last week I sent in a suggestion to TTC: That they should note on their website that the 65 (Parliament) bus had been on a fairly major diversion since 30 July and that this was going to continue all month. I asked for a response and today got this (clearly) standard reply:

"I am writing further to your correspondence dated August 4, 2023.

I would like to advise you that the TTC is committed to improving customer service and welcomes any feedback and suggestions from our riders in order to better serve the public. On this note, I have notified the appropriate personnel of your comments.

Thank you kindly for your comments and for allowing me the opportunity to respond.

Sincerely,

Robin
TTC Customer Service Representative"

In fact, whether because I flagged it or others did or someone @ TTC just woke up, the 65 bus detour info was added to their website on 5th. If they really cared they would have noted this in their response but ......

 

[W. K. Lis]

Hard to fathom how unlocking your phone, opening your app, hoping it works, and then finding your route information from the list, all under the presumption that you have internet connection, is easier than looking up at the sign and reading the information off of it. Especially if there's more than one route at the stop. In the time that it takes to find your route in the app, get a text message of departures from that stop, or finding your route or stop on TransSee (or setting up TransSee to show you data for multiple routes), you could've looked up and found out when the next departure is about 15 times over.

No, I'm sorry. This is completely and totally the wrong attitude to take.

What if you are using your phone to talk with your doctor or bank. Do you tell them to wait as you have to look up the next departure time of the bus you want to use? What if you were on hold waiting for some customer service for the past 10 minutes and the recording tells you that you are #3 in line and please wait another 5 minutes.?