DSCToronto
Superstar
I do not think it is new trains, the need is for the new signaling system so that trains will always 'park' in the same places and the train doors and platform doors 'line up'.
|
|
|
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
TwoWheelPoli
Active Member
Here's an updated screenshot of TTC cellular coverage someone shared on Reddit recently. Hope the TTC / Rogers can release an updated schedule for the western part of Line 2, all of Line 4, and the parts of Line 1 affected by asbestos removal (Eglinton to York Mills) soon.
81-717
Active Member
And again, can't have that either without new trains, which are the common denominator for both PSDs & a new signal system (especially given the near-daily disruptions on L2 now). So yes, it 100% is new trains.
nfitz
Superstar
Or adding extra equipment to the existing trains. Which remains an option - even if it's too expensive and doesn't make sense.
(too expensive and doesn't make sense however is Metrolinx's mission statement ... so very unlikely for TTC
)
81-717
Active Member
Why bother when replacing them would be cheaper & make more sense
urbanclient
Active Member
Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station, platform-edge doors to improve safety
toronto.citynews.ca
Broken clock... twice a day...
Vancouver has police with firearms that patrol the Skytrain, are we going to wait until the problems in Toronto get worse before implementing similar measures?
en.wikipedia.org
A handful of officers fixed to a handful of stations does little for the other 60+ stations. You don't see Vancouver Transit Police at every station, but they do patrols and often are first to respond to unruly patrons on the Skytrain.
nowtoronto.com
Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station, platform-edge doors to improve safety
City councillor and mayoral hopeful Brad Bradford is calling for more safety measures at TTC stations, including the much-talked-about installation of platform-edge doors along the transit system. The Ward 19 Beaches-East York councillor also wants to see police patrols as well as standardized...
toronto.citynews.ca
Vancouver has police with firearms that patrol the Skytrain, are we going to wait until the problems in Toronto get worse before implementing similar measures?
Metro Vancouver Transit Police - Wikipedia
A handful of officers fixed to a handful of stations does little for the other 60+ stations. You don't see Vancouver Transit Police at every station, but they do patrols and often are first to respond to unruly patrons on the Skytrain.
Toronto police expand community officer program to the TTC — but not all riders are on board - NOW Toronto
Toronto police are expanding a community policing program to the TTC subway system, with dedicated officers now patrolling sections of Line 1 Yonge University.
nowtoronto.com
nfitz
Superstar
That's a different discussion - one of options and costs. Your statement was that it wasn't possible without new trains - which is incorrect.
If you look elsewhere, where they can get 60-years out of rolling stock, then there's an option for a 20-year life extension rebuild - which could include new equipment.
Years ago, TTC reported that 28 of the workcars were also getting ATP (at about $300,000 or so per vehicle). If you installed ATP on each and every of the remaining 337 T1 cars (rather than in pairs, triplets, or trainsets) you are at about $100 million. The 55 replacement trains (330 cars) is about $2.3 billion. If delaying the replacement of the T1 trains by only a year, it's still paid for itself.
I'm not advocating for this, BTW. I'm simply noting that new subway trains are not a prerequisite. The prerequisite is trains with ATC installed.
If they've already converted H1s to ATC then can convert T1s.
Also, what about T1 cars 5184 and 5185 (RT-90 and RT-91)? Are you saying they didn't install ATC on them when they converted them to transit inspection vehicles in 2018?
Last edited:
Admiral Beez
Superstar
People aren't worried about being robbed, assaulted or shoved onto the tracks by thugs. It's the nutters that we're all worried about.
If we have solid fare enforcement the need for policing will decline as the ratio of sane, sober and stable transit users increases.
Last edited:
nfitz
Superstar
I'm not sure why the TTC police currently on the subway need to be armed. Can you cite a single case where that made a difference?Vancouver has police with firearms that patrol the Skytrain, are we going to wait until the problems in Toronto get worse before implementing similar measures?
Metro Vancouver Transit Police - Wikipedia
If police in some major cities, and Newfoundland!, can patrol unarmed, then I don't see why it's necessary to do otherwise on TTC.
Gosh, do you really want people with sidearms on a crush-loaded TTC train? If I was a police on a crush loaded train, I'd sooner not have to worry about the gun which is going to by default have other people whose hands are closer to it than mine!
Richard White
Senior Member
If you are referring to TFL, London is holding the 1972 Stock together by a thread. They are 50 years old and well beyond their design life to the point where they are no longer reliable.
There are operators of the 1972 stock on Instagram who consider the trains to be a headache.
81-717
Active Member
That was never the case here, and no one was advocating for it when previous generations of trains were retired. This time should be no different.
TR cars, or T1 cars?
It's already delayed by 3/4 years (luckily not 10).
I don't know if it's literal ATC that was added to the H4s (H1s were gone in 2017).
Back then ATC wasn't even live on the whole line? In any case, I just hope those will be gone along with the rest of the fleet, rather than sticking around another 2 decades afterward.
urbanclient
Active Member
That's fair. Transit police can conduct fare enforcement as well. Knowing the risk-averse culture surrounding Toronto transit, I can't see TTC security or employees getting involved in physically preventing nutters from hopping fare gates.
T3G
Senior Member
And cue another several billion dollar expansion to the police budget while the transit system and roads crumble ...
So far.
Have you seen how long the H1 and H4 work cars outlasted the passenger fleet? How does it make ANY sense to convert a pair of cars to a fairly lightly used work set only to junk it together with the revenue fleet???????????
Northern Light
Superstar
Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station, platform-edge doors to improve safety
Broken clock... twice a day...Brad Bradford calls for police at every TTC station, platform-edge doors to improve safety
City councillor and mayoral hopeful Brad Bradford is calling for more safety measures at TTC stations, including the much-talked-about installation of platform-edge doors along the transit system. The Ward 19 Beaches-East York councillor also wants to see police patrols as well as standardized...
Vancouver has police with firearms that patrol the Skytrain, are we going to wait until the problems in Toronto get worse before implementing similar measures?
Metro Vancouver Transit Police - Wikipedia
A handful of officers fixed to a handful of stations does little for the other 60+ stations. You don't see Vancouver Transit Police at every station, but they do patrols and often are first to respond to unruly patrons on the Skytrain.
Toronto police expand community officer program to the TTC — but not all riders are on board - NOW Toronto
Toronto police are expanding a community policing program to the TTC subway system, with dedicated officers now patrolling sections of Line 1 Yonge University.
There are 82 Stations including the underground stations on Crosstown and Finch.
Full Coverage for open hours, at 2 officers present at all times, is 8 officers per station ( 2 shifts per day, and officers are scheduled 7 on, 7 off, so you need 2 sets of 2sets of 2).
That's 656 officers; there are currently 5,433 authorized uniform positions.
So that would be a ~12% increase.
With direct, and indirect costs, you're likely looking at an operating budgetary impact in the range of 130M - 150M per year.
That's stiff.
If we're going to do that, then, I think we need to can the Special Constable Unit of TTC entirely to partially offset the cost.
We also need to drop the number of Fare Enforcement people who deploy to each site where they do checks, if they're going to be supported by police.
urbanclient
Active Member
Appreciate the analysis.
To clarify, I am not pro-give more money to the current police. I am pro-separate police force for transit. It's not a wholly novel concept as it is done in many cities throughout the world.
Canning the TTC special constable unit is exactly what would and should happen if Toronto got its own dedicated transit police. Putting cops at every station is not what I am advocating for, that would be a ridiculous increase in costs for the city and/or region. Dedicated transit police theoretically should be better trained to deal with potential jumpers, nutters and fare evasion, moreso than the TPS. Mental health and de-escalation etc....