[nfitz]

That was never the case here, and no one was advocating for it when previous generations of trains were retired. This time should be no different.

No one? Didn't we discuss just that, here, about 20 years ago?

I don't know if it's literal ATC that was added to the H4s (H1s were gone in 2017).

I believe there's still four H1s in TTC non-revenue service. And several H4s.

If the 28 work cars that were given ATC (I assume 30 with the T1s) doesn't include any H1s or H4s, I'd be shocked.

To be pedantic: When Line 1 had a mixed fleet during the early phases of the installation in the early 2010s, the non-Toronto Rockets (H series, T-1s) were never converted to be ATC-capable, certainly not the H1s that were retired in 1999? I don't know if "H1s" was a typo. Or do you mean AC air conditioning for the H1s?

No, the H1s and H4s that are TTC are still operating now. ATC conversion wasn't complete until the early 2020s. Did they add AC? I'm surprised.

Here's an H4 at Downsview Park station last year:

 

[T3G]

Did they add AC? I'm surprised.

No subway cars in Toronto were ever retrofitted with A/C that didn't have it when they were built.

 

[turbanplanner]

No one? Didn't we discuss just that, here, about 20 years ago?


I believe there's still four H1s in TTC non-revenue service. And several H4s.

If the 28 work cars that were given ATC (I assume 30 with the T1s) doesn't include any H1s or H4s, I'd be shocked.


No, the H1s and H4s that are TTC are still operating now. ATC conversion wasn't complete until the early 2020s. Did they add AC? I'm surprised.

Here's an H4 at Downsview Park station last year:

View attachment 719631

Any tips on if I'd want to snap a photo like this?

I was at Union Station's TTC concourse a few months ago and I woman started screeching and flaying about. Four TTC security guards were there, walked over to her and said cut it out. I'd hurried past. Upon which she walked away from them, down onto the platform and inevitably onto my train, where she began screaming at all the passengers. I thought to myself, if this transit system will not keep disruptive nutters off their property, then I won't use it unless I must. It's just so different elsewhere in the world, for example in Singapore I recall how clean the subways were and how polite and quiet everyone was. Of course a transit system can only but pull from the society in which it operates, and Toronto seems to have surrendered so much of the public realm to the addicted and mentally ill population and to the homeless industrial complex that purposely concentrates the issue into the downtown core.

I had this EXACT sort of interaction but on the GO a while back! Crazy man screaming about how jesus will murder us. He magically was sane once some special constables came to ask where he was going. and about 30 seconds later he's screaming again.

 

[81-717]

No one? Didn't we discuss just that, here, about 20 years ago?

Feel free to link any posts from that era that would say so, because it's probably buried among a sea of posts all saying "30 year lifespan" and "good riddance".

I believe there's still four H1s in TTC non-revenue service. And several H4s.

If there are still H1s around I'd be pleasantly surprised, but I'm pretty sure there are none since the end of 2017. I'm equally surprised that some H4s remained in storage in their original condition until as late as 2019 or later, before being converted to work cars. If only those had been preserved with their original interior intact (not that a converted H4 shouldn't be preserved anyway).

Among others. Montreal's MR-63 cars started delivery in 1965 and were retired in 2018. 53 years. Montreal's MR-73s started delivery in around 1974, and are still in service 52-years later. They are planned to be replaced in 2036 - at the age of 60 years.

NYC are still retiring their R44s, with deliveries starting in 1971, and probably all gone by the end of 2026 - 55 years service. The R42s did 50 years. The R32s from 1964 were retired in 2022 - 58 years.

The 1972 London tube stock are likely to be replaced in the late 2030s or early 2040s. Well over 60-years old, might hit 70! However the 1973 stock should be gone in 2030 - only 57 years old. The final 1938 stock was withdrawn in 2021 - 80+ years. Though the final 30 or so years was by British Rail (and successors) on the Isle of Wight.

The subway in Buenos Aires is still using some some subway cars from 1954 - over 70 years old. Paris's MP 59 (very similar to Montreal's MR-63) trains were in service for over 60 years from 1963 to 2024 while their MF 67s entered service in 1968 and won't be fully retired for 2034 - over 65 years of service.

The 1972 stock is hardly an outlier. Yeah, it requires more work as it gets older. But it's 100% an option; but harder to fund maintenance than capital costs in Ontario.

Now let's look at the TTC specifically:
Gs: 36 years
M1s: 36 years
H1s: 34 years
H2s: 30 years
H4s: 37 years
H5s: 36 years
H6s: 28 years
The T1s, TRs & future cars should be no different

 

[turbanplanner]

Feel free to link any posts from that era that would say so, because it's probably buried among a sea of posts all saying "30 year lifespan" and "good riddance".

If there are still H1s around I'd be pleasantly surprised, but I'm pretty sure there are none since the end of 2017. I'm equally surprised that some H4s remained in storage in their original condition until as late as 2019 or later, before being converted to work cars. If only those had been preserved with their original interior intact (not that a converted H4 shouldn't be preserved anyway).

Now let's look at the TTC specifically:
Gs: 36 years
M1s: 36 years
H1s: 34 years
H2s: 30 years
H4s: 37 years
H5s: 36 years
H6s: 28 years.

The T1s, TRs & future cars should be no different

It's a total shame one of the 5's or 6's were preserved. Not a single one :/

 

[81-717]

It's a total shame one of the 5's or 6's were preserved. Not a single one :/

Yes, it's absolutely infuriating. At least 5707 still survives & is sorta preserved by a private company (you could argue that it's not a guarantee they won't eventually get rid of it, but technically preservation societies also get rid of things sometimes, so no guarantee there either).

 

[T3G]

Any tips on if I'd want to snap a photo like this?

You're pretty much out of luck if you wanted a photo of one in a station, you'd just have to be in the right place at the right time. But if any photo will do, Belt Line Bridge over Davisville yard. I have never stopped by there and not seen at least one H4 work car parked in the yard.

 

[81-717]

I have never stopped by there and not seen at least one H4 work car parked in the yard.

When I was there on Feb 12 & 16 to film 566X & 613X there were nothing but TRs. But when I passed by a few days later the H4s were back.

 

[nfitz]

If there are still H1s around I'd be pleasantly surprised, but I'm pretty sure there are none since the end of 2017. I'm equally surprised that some H4s remained in storage in their original condition until as late as 2019 or later, before being converted to work cars. If only those had been preserved with their original interior intact (not that a converted H4 shouldn't be preserved anyway).

H1 cars 5336, 5458, and 5459 are still used for asbestos abatement according to https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Toronto_Transit_Commission_Rail_Workcars. I'd assume the latter two are relatively intact if they are crew cars.

My point though is that if some of the H4s (and H1s?) and T1s have been successfully converted to ATC, in the early 2020s - then why is it a no-go to convert the remaining T1 fleet?

 

[nfitz]

You're pretty much out of luck if you wanted a photo of one in a station, you'd just have to be in the right place at the right time. But if any photo will do, Belt Line Bridge over Davisville yard. I have never stopped by there and not seen at least one H4 work car parked in the yard.

The only time I've consistently seen them in stations, is on Danforth between Greenwood and Yonge just before the last train of the day ran. But that was a while ago, I seldom ride at that time since Covid.

You can see them in Greenwood at times from the GO Train. I'm not sure if there's a good vantage point. Wilson too I think ...

 

[urbanclient]

H1 cars 5336, 5458, and 5459 are still used for asbestos abatement according to https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Toronto_Transit_Commission_Rail_Workcars. I'd assume the latter two are relatively intact if they are crew cars.

My point though is that if some of the H4s (and H1s?) and T1s have been successfully converted to ATC, in the early 2020s - then why is it a no-go to convert the remaining T1 fleet?

Ok I get what you're saying now, H-Series as work cars right? I think that's the answer, a few H-1s were converted to work cars with ATC apparently, but non-Toronto Rockets were never converted to ATC for revenue service AFAIK, and we all agree on this last point right? H-1s were taken out of revenue service in 1999 is what I meant earlier.

 

[nfitz]

Ok I get what you're saying now, H-Series as work cars right? I think that's the answer, a few H-1s were converted to work cars with ATC apparently, but non-Toronto Rockets were never converted to ATC for revenue service AFAIK, and we all agree on this last point right? H-1s were taken out of revenue service in 1999 is what I meant earlier.

The discussion was about converting the remaining T1s to ATC. So yes, the discussion has been the ($300,000 or so per car) conversion of work cars to ATC. Which likely includes H1s, H4s, and T1s.

Thus meaning it's not prohibitively expensive to convert the remaining T1 fleet to ATC.

I'm not aware of any non-Toronto Rockets revenue cars being ATC. Except of course whatever was on the S1 fleet.

 

[T3G]

You can see them in Greenwood at times from the GO Train. I'm not sure if there's a good vantage point. Wilson too I think ...

Greenwood - only if you got lucky and the train stopped for a red light right next to the yard. The yard juts out right next to the rail corridor.

Wilson... maybe if one had a drone.... but you didn't hear that from me...

 

[81-717]

I do not think it is new trains, the need is for the new signaling system so that trains will always 'park' in the same places and the train doors and platform doors 'line up'.

Now I'm curious how the St. Petersburg subway manages to have PSDs Ultra Pro Max with old manual 81-717 trains with 1970s technology (definitely not driverless or ATC'd).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Lomonosovskaya_metrostaion-doors_open.JPG

H1 cars 5336, 5458, and 5459 are still used for asbestos abatement according to https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Toronto_Transit_Commission_Rail_Workcars. I'd assume the latter two are relatively intact if they are crew cars.

idk when that page was last updated but this is news to me. Unfortunately, asbestos would probably seal their ultimate fate.

My point though is that if some of the H4s (and H1s?) and T1s have been successfully converted to ATC, in the early 2020s - then why is it a no-go to convert the remaining T1 fleet?

Work cars would be the exception, not the rule, I'm guessing. Otherwise they wouldn't need to have ordered more TRs just to get every last T1 off line 1.