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Johnny Au said:
There's always a dilemma with regards to fare evasion: allow fare evasion and lose some money or hire more transit enforcement officers (and pay them).

Both involve losing money from the TTC, though the latter allows for employment opportunities for those wishing to be transit enforcement officers.

Dufferin station is rather popular with fare evaders.
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The best solution -if one can call it that- in the end would be the meet in the middle. They shouldnt let fare evasion creep up too high, while at the same time they have to manage the number of enforcement officers they hire. No doubt it's a difficult task, but in some cases the TTC makes it downright easy to avoid paying fares. Dufferin is an excellent example of that.
 
Amare said:
The best solution -if one can call it that- in the end would be the meet in the middle. They shouldnt let fare evasion creep up too high, while at the same time they have to manage the number of enforcement officers they hire. No doubt it's a difficult task, but in some cases the TTC makes it downright easy to avoid paying fares. Dufferin is an excellent example of that.
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Do you mean the 29 bus stopping at Dufferin station?

Every time I've used it, it's been de facto all door boarding because it would just take way too long to load everyone through the front.

I wonder what portion of those riders are directly off the subway. I bet it's pretty high. I would imagine that the marginal losses for the odd person not paying their fare would be made up by the speed/reliability picked up, but I don't know.

I don't know why there's so much distrust of our fellow citizens. I choose to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they have paid their fare. I see people give me a weird look when I jump on the back of a streetcar with my metropass in my pocket - am I the person that these people run to Twitter and UrbanToronto to complain about getting a free ride? Flaunting the system? I don't know, I'm the guy who still puts their token in the slot when the station attendant is on a bathroom break, so maybe I'm just naive.


That said, there are some weak spots because of the half-assed dive into POP, in addition to the Dufferin bus. I've never seen a fare inspector inside St. Clair W station, or St. Clair station either, for that matter. It would be so easy to jump on the streetcar one stop outside the station. Once you're off the car, it's assumed you've paid your fare.

The TTC really needs to go to a full system of POP, but given all the money they're spending on fare gates, I guess that's off the table.

Once every one has a Presto card, we won't need to worry about picking up an actual POP receipt, so it should be easy.
 
[QUOTE="Zach6668, post: 1131176, member: 56191 The TTC really needs to go to a full system of POP, but given all the money they're spending on fare gates, I guess that's off the table. [/QUOTE]

I think you should look on the new fare gates as an automated form of POP enforcement; once the new gates are in place and only PRESTO is acceptable you will not be able to enter enter the subway without 'proof of payment'. Then there are the human inspectors who check POP on buses and streetcars. Clearly the TTC cannot inspect everyone and are apparently aiming at a 2% fare evasion rate which is pretty typical, whether there are enough fare inspectors and whether they are in the right places is unclear but it's obviously a balancing act. I have been inspected several times at Broadview Station getting off a 514 and saw an inspector on WWE last week.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
or exit. Once the whole system is ready you will have to tap out as well to leave a subway station.
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I am a guy who is motivated by the idea that the rules apply to us all. It is upsetting to me and unbelievable to think that there are people not paying at all. The PRESTO installation in all locations and vehicles, and the need to tap out could not come fast enough. This is pure nonsense.
 
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Soon enough, buses here would have turnstiles, just like Moscow:

1599px-Turnstile_and_smart_card_reader_in_Moscow_bus.JPG
 
Zach6668 said:
Do you mean the 29 bus stopping at Dufferin station?

Every time I've used it, it's been de facto all door boarding because it would just take way too long to load everyone through the front.

I wonder what portion of those riders are directly off the subway. I bet it's pretty high. I would imagine that the marginal losses for the odd person not paying their fare would be made up by the speed/reliability picked up, but I don't know.

I don't know why there's so much distrust of our fellow citizens. I choose to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they have paid their fare. I see people give me a weird look when I jump on the back of a streetcar with my metropass in my pocket - am I the person that these people run to Twitter and UrbanToronto to complain about getting a free ride? Flaunting the system? I don't know, I'm the guy who still puts their token in the slot when the station attendant is on a bathroom break, so maybe I'm just naive.


That said, there are some weak spots because of the half-assed dive into POP, in addition to the Dufferin bus. I've never seen a fare inspector inside St. Clair W station, or St. Clair station either, for that matter. It would be so easy to jump on the streetcar one stop outside the station. Once you're off the car, it's assumed you've paid your fare.

The TTC really needs to go to a full system of POP, but given all the money they're spending on fare gates, I guess that's off the table.

Once every one has a Presto card, we won't need to worry about picking up an actual POP receipt, so it should be easy.
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Let's put it this way. There will always be someone trying to cheat the system. This is human nature. If everyone must load from the front, the bus will dwell too long. Run time will increase and thus an extra bus is required to operate the desired service. If they station fare enforcement officers at Dufferin, that requires hiring a few more guys adding to the operating cost. If there is someone watching at every door, those who intend to cheat to ride for a few stops wouldn't even brother. Hardly anyone takes the Dufferin bus all the way to Wilson. It's not like the TTC is guarantee to receive the lost revenue if they have full enforcement. The cheapest solution is just leave it the way it is now.

Fare enforcement officers target the trouble spots. They'll go to places where fare evasion happens the most. It's not productive to inspect everyone just to have 0% fare evasion. There's an upright cost to hiring fare inspectors plus TTC doesn't get a single cent from the tickets issued.
 
TransitBart said:
I am a guy who is motivated by the idea that the rules apply to us all. It is upsetting to me and unbelievable to think that there are people not paying at all. The PRESTO installation in all locations and vehicles, and the need to tap out could not come fast enough. This is pure nonsense.
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I don't know why you think it's unbelievable that some people don't pay. Not trying to be rude here but I don't think you're a child and would understand that this world isn't perfect. Someone is not going to pay fare. It happens here and everywhere else. People use to rip tickets in half, put in less coins, use fake tokens, metropasses and etc. It's not that they starting doing POP and free rides for kids that all this problem started. It's been ongoing since the existence of the TTC. We go the worst case that some people ride by hanging onto the bus from the back too.

The real question is why isn't these fare evaders paying like you, me and the rest of us? Is it because the system can be easily cheated so people skip out or because of social inequality that some people can't afford to pay so they'll try to skip out whenever they can. For the TTC, it's their job to monitor the fare system and catch the offenders. As for the city and the country, if fare evasion happens a lot more than it should, it indicates a bigger question. Is Toronto that bad of a city that people can't afford to pay? Or there are that many people that are lowly educated and rather not pay? Do we have too many poor immigrants/refugees? Or that we have some many risk takers? This isn't nonsense but real world problems.

Presto gates will not solve the problem. If those who intend to not pay would just slip in and out of the automatic entrance gates. They aren't enclosed and could be easily jumped.
 
Of all the problems on the TTC, a few hundred customers on the 29 Dufferin getting a free ride due to overcrowding is the absolute least of my concerns.
 
TransitBart said:
I am a guy who is motivated by the idea that the rules apply to us all. It is upsetting to me and unbelievable to think that there are people not paying at all. The PRESTO installation in all locations and vehicles, and the need to tap out could not come fast enough. This is pure nonsense.
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I am a bit unclear as to what you think is 'pure nonsense". The fact that people sometimes travel without paying; the fact that installing PRESTO readers on all vehicles and stations is taking time; the fact that completely changing the fare system is complex or your whole post. Of course, everyone should pay their fare but, as noted by others, the cost of enforcement needs to be balanced against the cost of 'lost fares'. Installing PRESTO readers on all streetcars, buses and at all subway stations is a huge job, and appears to be moving on pretty well. Educating the public (us) that the way we pay fares and get 'transfers' and how we prove we have paid is changing is not an easy task and I foresee lots of confusion when it is first fully implemented, no matter how well the TTC tries to educate us. To quote the other Bart: "Don't have a cow, man."
 
So the current TTC streetcar diversion strategies are not working well. I was very confused yesterday trying to get a 505 Dundas West streetcar at Dundas and Spadina to find four 506 east Main Street streetcars heading west on Dundas. They then turned north on Spadina and loop back on College. Meanwhile, the 511 Bathurst bus going North is diverting on Dundas and then turning left at this intersection as well. Essentially it's taking almost 2 light cycles to get each streetcar through the intersection. This intersection simply cannot functionally handle this demand when coupled with the normal other traffic and pedestrians. I'm wondering why they didn't choose McCaul for the turnback instead.

Spadina is also just getting hammered itself. Queen cars are using Spadina both ways to connect to the diversion on King. Adding in the College diversion simultaneously means that the Spadina line gets slowed unacceptably with cars trying to turn on/off the ROW and make the lefts. Really a mess.
 
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