[TransitBart]

CLRV 4000 being taken to the scrap yard

Oh crap. For a moment, I thought that was Russell Division.

It’s not. It’s the Leslie Barns. Which means that the cars behind this one aren’t resting at a Russell, but are on the way to the scrap heap like 4000. As of tonight according to CPTDB, 54 of the original 200 are gone from the CLRV fleet. We are going to have streetcar shortages for years unless another 100 get bought.

I heard the the TTC promised never to store viable cars at Leslie. There are at least two storage tracks full of scrap vehicles being stored there. A lot of the old fleet is truly done.

 

[Andy T]

Oh crap. For a moment, I thought that was Russell Division.

It’s not. It’s the Leslie Barns. Which means that the cars behind this one aren’t resting at a Russell, but are on the way to the scrap heap like 4000. As of tonight according to CPTDB, 54 of the original 200 are gone from the CLRV fleet. We are going to have streetcar shortages for years unless another 100 get bought.

I heard the the TTC promised never to store viable cars at Leslie. There are at least two storage tracks full of scrap vehicles being stored there. A lot of the old fleet is truly done.

They hold ALRVs that are in need of a refurbishment there.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Maybe the Halton County Radial Railway, Exporail, Edmonton Radial Railway Society, etc. may take a few dozen off before they are destroyed? The Halton Country wouldn't have to change the track gauge, but the others would have to.

 

[Richard White]

Maybe the Halton County Radial Railway, Exporail, Edmonton Radial Railway Society, etc. may take a few dozen off before they are destroyed? The Halton Country wouldn't have to change the track gauge, but the others would have to.

Steve Munro in a reply to my comment:

Some of the CLRVs are in very rough shape physically and would need a lot of work just to preserve for static viewing. The electronics have been very difficult to source and maintain for the TTC, and this is certainly beyond the capabilities of a museum operation. It is a shame to lose a first car, though.

With that in mind, the technology is space age and unlike the Peter Witts it is not fly by wire, it is fly by diode to a certain extent. It is space age technology which is very much outdated and hard to come by.

Technology is very much computerised now whereas the CLRV and ALRVs are a cross between the PCCs and early 1990s automobiles. They don't have onboard computers but they do have electronics. It is more like a true/false logic based system. If you toggle switch A, then a signal is sent to another system telling it to do something because toggle switch a is in the active position.

Trying to find the electronic control components for the CLRVs and ALRVs is damn near impossible even for the TTC (who had to make some of the parts in house). It would make it impractical for a restoration given you would need to salvage parts from many other cars. HCRR would need a few cars from which to salvage parts and that is not ideal in most cases.

All things considered it would be nice to have a CLRV or ALRV but trying to keep them in service is a fools errand.

 

[jje1000]

I think for now, the priority should be in making existing routes more efficient and reducing overcrowding- which I think has become a problem over the last five years.

In the downtown areas, transit shortfalls can (and should) be made up for via cycling (and I think the TTC issues + new bike lanes has in fact been a key instigator in boosting cycling numbers).

TTC's ridership strategy aims to reduce commuter 'pain points'
Transit agency on track to miss 2017 targets, attract fewer riders this year than last

The TTC is on pace to fall 10 million tokens — or Presto taps — short of its 2017 ridership goal, leaving the transit agency scrambling to boost the number of people riding the rocket.

That could prove difficult.

TTC officials will release the first part of the new ridership growth strategy at Monday afternoon's board meeting. In the report by customer development head Arthur Borkwood, the transit agency warns it is struggling to boost streetcar service due to Bombardier's slow delivery of new vehicles, while plans to expand the bus fleet are being hampered by a lack of storage space. The report also notes the streetcar woes are further straining the bus fleet.

"The unreliability of the aging streetcar fleet, coupled with the delayed deliveries of new accessible streetcars, is causing the TTC to pull buses from bus routes to replace failing legacy streetcars on streetcar routes," Borkwood's report states.

The crunch is causing the TTC to operate fewer hours of service than city council approved funding for. In September, it ran nearly 2,800 fewer hours of streetcar service than what was budgeted for, and some 4,800 fewer hours of bus service.

The result for riders: "pain points." That's the TTC's term for issues around service reliability and flexibility, which are driving riders away.

"The less frequently someone relies on the TTC, the more difficult it will be to encourage them to use the TTC more often," said the report.

Currently, the TTC estimates it has 850,000 unique customers in the city.

The new ridership growth strategy includes hop-on, hop-off two-hour transfers, which was already announced by TTC Chair Josh Colle and Mayor John Tory, along with a number of other measures. Borkwood's report says the three goals are: moving more customers more reliably, creating a "seamless" public transit system and making long-term innovations.

It estimates that solving service issues can draw a one per cent ridership increase, while major service upgrades and expansions — like the soon to be opened Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension — can deliver increases of five per cent.

A number of major upgrades are coming, including the McNicoll Garage, which will add 100-plus buses by 2020, and light rail lines on Eglinton and Finch West that are set to open in 2021 and 2022, respectively.

But the TTC will need some quicker solutions to address issues like declining adult ridership.

Borkwood's report says 16 million yearly adult rides have been lost since 2014, with 403,000 fewer adult Metropasses being sold during that same timeframe.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-ridership-challenges-1.4442784


Report located here:

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...wth_Strategy_2018_2022_Preliminary_Report.pdf

Lots of interesting statistics here.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Hmm...

...does this mean a possible rider waiting for a bus could be ticketed for "standing" by the bus stop?
lol

 

[smallspy]

Steve Munro in a reply to my comment:

With that in mind, the technology is space age and unlike the Peter Witts it is not fly by wire, it is fly by diode to a certain extent. It is space age technology which is very much outdated and hard to come by.

Technology is very much computerised now whereas the CLRV and ALRVs are a cross between the PCCs and early 1990s automobiles. They don't have onboard computers but they do have electronics. It is more like a true/false logic based system. If you toggle switch A, then a signal is sent to another system telling it to do something because toggle switch a is in the active position.

Trying to find the electronic control components for the CLRVs and ALRVs is damn near impossible even for the TTC (who had to make some of the parts in house). It would make it impractical for a restoration given you would need to salvage parts from many other cars. HCRR would need a few cars from which to salvage parts and that is not ideal in most cases.

All things considered it would be nice to have a CLRV or ALRV but trying to keep them in service is a fools errand.

Fortunately, Steve Munro doesn't speak for Halton County.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[DSC]

Fortunately, Steve Munro doesn't speak for Halton County.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

No, of course he doesn't but he is right that the about-to-be-retired streetcars have electronics that are very hard to maintain and MAYBE impossible for the HC folk. He actually says, in a later response, "If they do get one, the challenge will be to make and keep it operational with the antique electronics."

 

[crs1026]

Considering the advanced decay of other old streetcars that have found their way to Rockwood and come back to life, one would hope that a CLRV might find its way into their collection, even on a stuffed and mounted basis. One hopes that the TTC might even consider keeping one around.

It may be easier to set up a preserved operable CLRV when the fleet gets down to the dregs. TTC is likely not willing to dilute its spare parts inventory right now given the number of cars they need to keep in service. However, they are stripping parts from the cars as they are taken out of service. At some point the number of spare parts in inventory versus the number of cars to be maintained might improve. It's conceivable that one or more museums might acquire a runnable car plus two or three parts horses. Of course, that parts supply will only last so long, but it might allow one to be kept going for a while anyways.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Considering the advanced decay of other old streetcars that have found their way to Rockwood and come back to life, one would hope that a CLRV might find its way into their collection, even on a stuffed and mounted basis. One hopes that the TTC might even consider keeping one around.

It may be easier to set up a preserved operable CLRV when the fleet gets down to the dregs. TTC is likely not willing to dilute its spare parts inventory right now given the number of cars they need to keep in service. However, they are stripping parts from the cars as they are taken out of service. At some point the number of spare parts in inventory versus the number of cars to be maintained might improve. It's conceivable that one or more museums might acquire a runnable car plus two or three parts horses. Of course, that parts supply will only last so long, but it might allow one to be kept going for a while anyways.

- Paul

It's a true shame that 4000 was lost, but as long as any of the following Swiss built protos are saved, the model is. Agreed on spares, but there's another aspect on this. And btw, Richard was incorrect on "space age" and "computers". As an electronic tech, I can assure you, even not being familiar with the actual circuit design, that the series used *many* "microprocessors". The media has failed to differentiate the difference between a microprocessor and "computer". It is merely the extent of flexibility in software control. A computer is an amalgam of thousands of microprocessors, it doesn't mean that for a specific function an and/or or nand/nor gate is insufficient. Simple diode logic is often the best and most robust, and in many cases, due to the size of the diode junction using discreet components, much, much more rugged and able to handle transients. (And on a machine like this, there are massive ones)

But I digress. Where the problem of sourcing parts might well be is in finding the *exact circuit stated part number*...whereas an 'off the shelf replacement' does it just as well if not better. Is it still stock? No it isn't, but the *function* can be maintained. And often improved. Anyone working in electronics is aware of the rampant "substitution manuals" and reams of replacement part lines. It's not like this was a Germanium era design. It's Silicon. All of the electronics can be rigged to work, even if they lose sophisticated aspects in doing so (safety interlocks and logic gates, etc)(Ironically, this is where today's tech grad could jury-rig an Arduino machine code type fix, and even program and run it from a compact computer).

Actual motor mount sizes and bogies might be a challenge, but that's where the rest of the 'scrapped ones' come in handy. As long as they have a machinist and electronic techs on staff or call at Halton, they could keep one of these running. Not like new, but how much is in a museum? It would never be certified for commercial use again, but would only have to meet basic safety regs for an operating museum exhibit.

But I agree, it was brutal watching the first one butchered. Someone's going to have to have a good reason for doing that...

 

[Richard White]

Considering the advanced decay of other old streetcars that have found their way to Rockwood and come back to life, one would hope that a CLRV might find its way into their collection, even on a stuffed and mounted basis. One hopes that the TTC might even consider keeping one around.

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The thing is that the PCCs, Witts and other cars are all fly by wire with virtually no computer control. They are easy to maintain, compared to the CLRV and ALRV fleet which have early computerisation and electronic systems. You can maintain a PCC or Witt with little headache and machine most of the parts. With the CLRV and ALRV fleet you have to source antiquated electronics and while doable not exactly ideal.

The problem is that the TTC is already cannibalising cars for spare parts. You can only do that so many times before you begin to run out of spare parts. I get you can probably source the parts but would it be worth it for a transit museum like HCRR to invest the time and effort into doing so?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Might just get the shell, but replace the interior with modern electronics. It'll be like having a 1950's television on the outside, but modern monitor screen attached to a smartphone inside.

 

[drum118]

Come 5 am December 13, riders are in for one rough ride for the rest of the week leaning how to use Kennedy Bus Terminal as well having POP ready to get on the buses from where the rider got on, not the station. TTC Staff was handing out notices on the new bus location while I was there.

All riders using TTC 12, 21, 34E, 43, 57 and 131E must use the west end tunnel to get to the new bus bays for the next few years. All these routes as well the closure of the north entrance will be like this for the next few years to allow the building of the LRT station.

All these bus routes will turn left exiting the new area and will exit by Kennedy Rd exit only. All the rest of the routes will turn right onto Transit Way when exiting the current terminal, not like it is today. Even then, there is confusion on this change as some say it will happen on the 13th, while others say next year and this includes Metrolinx. The understanding I was told there today, once the new road is built off Eglinton, the current service road will be close.

Talk about confusion what is going to happen for the next 4 years is a understatement.

 

[crs1026]

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The problem is that the TTC is already cannibalising cars for spare parts. You can only do that so many times before you begin to run out of spare parts. I get you can probably source the parts but would it be worth it for a transit museum like HCRR to invest the time and effort into doing so?

No question, down the road it will be impossible to source new components for the CLRV's. Possibly that's already the case for some components. TTC is possibly already down to its limited inventory of spares and hoping the Flexities arrive faster than the circuit boards and microprocessors fail. Museums won't have the capability to replace parts at all.

My point was - the TTC still has 120ish CLRV's on the road, which means they have 120 working copies of everything. Assume they get 60 Flexities next year and retire 60 CLRV's. That means they have 60 working copies and 60 spares, less those that fail in service. Once robbed from the scrap vehicles, those spares won't fail on the stores shelf. Retire a further 30 cars next year and at some point you are banking spares faster than you are wearing them out.

I don't know what the highest failure components are or whether they have a known rate of failure. The point is, when we are down to the last few CLRV's there may still be enough spares to extend their life for a while.

I bet the TTC shops have specialised test equipment for those old circuit boards. A museum won't have much luck maintaining a CLRV without those test rigs, and TTC won't part with any of them so long as there are cars in service that have to be maintained. And test equipment wears out as well. So it's not a pretty picture. As with PCC's etc, there is also the question of whether there are any people left who remember how to do the troubleshooting and fixing. I'm just hoping that somebody stays positive and tries to make it work. If everyone says 'can't be done', it's all over.

- Paul

 

[Richard White]

Might just get the shell, but replace the interior with modern electronics. It'll be like having a 1950's television on the outside, but modern monitor screen attached to a smartphone inside.

Rewiring a streetcar top to bottom is not cheap. I believe the TRHA once considered rewiring Cape Race to bring it up to modern specs but dropped the idea rather than pay an insanely high cost to do it. Maybe you can provide more insight into that Dan?