[Steve X]

And yet they are going to build a subway on Eglinton West with even lower ridership. Because Ford.

With the technology being LRVs, the cost (power) to operate the trains might even be lower due to shorter and lighter trains.

 

[Amare]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1263920384124112898

If the Feds weren't so intent on wasting unnecessary money on things like the one-time May top up for the Canada Child Benefit, 1/4 of that money that to earmarked for that could have been used for something like this. Heck, all of that money could have been better spent giving it to the dozens of municipalities across the country who are at risk of slashing services like we've never seen before.

But I digress, lets just randomly give free money to families instead of targeting specific needs. That will come back to haunt all of us in the form of higher taxes anyways whether people know it or not.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The inability for Toronto to respond to this crisis is wholly due to provincial regulation, and the City of Toronto is ultimately the responsibility of the Province of Ontario. I don’t see why the Federal government should be coerced into propping up the City when the Province has both the fiscal and legislative ability to navigate the City out of this crisis. Do something about it, Doug.

 

[Amare]

The inability for Toronto to respond to this crisis is wholly due to provincial regulation, and the City of Toronto is ultimately the responsibility of the Province of Ontario. I don’t see why the Federal government should be coerced into propping up the City when the Province has both the fiscal and legislative ability to navigate the City out of this crisis. Do something about it, Doug.

You're definitely right in that it is much more of a provincial responsibility to bail their local municipalities out, that I wont argue with you at all. The issue here is that the scale of the problem is just so big, and we don't know how long cities will need help for. The Feds will have to chip in some regard (whether that be emergency funding like this, or new stimulus money for transit in particular once things start to shift for the better) because I have serious doubts that the province could support this massive cost for every municipality. Remember, muncipalities are not legally allowed to operate decifits. So this means Toronto, Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, Ottawa, Windsor, etc... will all need help and not just for transit.

What worries me is that the Feds have dug themselves into such a big hole, we have no idea if they'll be able to pump out even more out when the time comes to truly stimulate the economy and future transit needs.

 

[rbt]

The inability for Toronto to respond to this crisis is wholly due to provincial regulation, and the City of Toronto is ultimately the responsibility of the Province of Ontario. I don’t see why the Federal government should be coerced into propping up the City when the Province has both the fiscal and legislative ability to navigate the City out of this crisis. Do something about it, Doug.

Indeed. They don't even need to do much, just allow borrowing for operating purposes during 2020 and perhaps 2021.

A 3% 30 year tax bump starting 2022 is fairly achievable.

 

[Streety McCarface]

If it cost TTC $17 per rider before this mess compare to $1.19 system wide, what do you think it cost now?? I would say it costing TTC close to $50 per riders

It was requested by TTC staff close to 10 years ago to close the line then due to the line being a money pit, but the commission said no.

If the line had got built to Victoria as plan, maybe things would be different today, but Old Mikie is to blame for the shortness of the line.

I can say with 100% certainty that it was not costing the TTC 17$ per rider. If that were the case, the line would cost at least 250 million dollars to operate annually (including revenue from fares), or 46 million dollars per kilometer to operate annually. That number already doesn't make any sense; the crosstown will cost 80M to operate while having 3* as many underground stops and be twice the length underground. Frequencies will also be twice as high.

The TTC's conventional transit budget is about 2 billion dollars (which includes maintenance). If the rest of the budget was spent on only the subway network, it would cost the agency 25 M/km. Now how does this make sense when the rest of the network is in a far greater state of disrepair, requires more station managers per km and per station, runs trains twice as frequently, runs trains 50% larger, runs trains with twice the number of operators? That doesn't make sense, especially when most of the budget is spent on the surface network.

If the rest of the rapid transit system cost as much as the Sheppard subway costs to run, the budget would 3.5 billion, again without factoring the surface transit network, which accounts for more than half the TTC's budget.

A budget cut of this magnitude would be detrimental to all areas of the network. Wishing parts of the network away that don't have near perfect ridership is a dangerous and stupid precedent to set.

 

[Amare]

Indeed. They don't even need to do much, just allow borrowing for operating purposes during 2020 and perhaps 2021.

A 3% 30 year tax bump starting 2022 is fairly achievable.

Fairly achievable, IF the province actually allows the city do that. If they dont, then the province themselves would have to come up with some kind of special levy which i'm sure residents will be vociferously against.

I highly doubt the province will allow municipalities to borrow any funds for this, it's more of a complicated matter that i'm sure they may not want to open up right now.

 

[littlewill1166]

If the Feds weren't so intent on wasting unnecessary money on things like the one-time May top up for the Canada Child Benefit, 1/4 of that money that to earmarked for that could have been used for something like this. Heck, all of that money could have been better spent giving it to the dozens of municipalities across the country who are at risk of slashing services like we've never seen before.

But I digress, lets just randomly give free money to families instead of targeting specific needs. That will come back to haunt all of us in the form of higher taxes anyways whether people know it or not.

Bank of Canada is just going to print more money through quantitative easing... money doesn't have to be repaid because we're going to inflate our way out of this. Or at least that's the plan.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Fairly achievable, IF the province actually allows the city do that. If they dont, then the province themselves would have to come up with some kind of special levy which i'm sure residents will be vociferously against.

I highly doubt the province will allow municipalities to borrow any funds for this, it's more of a complicated matter that i'm sure they may not want to open up right now.

Interest rates right now are very low. I don’t see why QP shouldn’t just go into deficit spending to cover the shortfall. The Federal government has been doing a lot for Canadians, meanwhile the Ford government has done diddly squat for Ontarians. It’s not right for Ontario to be going to the feds for handouts.

Anyways inaction isn’t an option here so Ford better do something quick. This could expeditiously become a politically untenable situation for his government, if municipal services across Ontario come to a halt.

 

[drum118]

I can say with 100% certainty that it was not costing the TTC 17$ per rider. If that were the case, the line would cost at least 250 million dollars to operate annually (including revenue from fares), or 46 million dollars per kilometer to operate annually. That number already doesn't make any sense; the crosstown will cost 80M to operate while having 3* as many underground stops and be twice the length underground. Frequencies will also be twice as high.

The TTC's conventional transit budget is about 2 billion dollars (which includes maintenance). If the rest of the budget was spent on only the subway network, it would cost the agency 25 M/km. Now how does this make sense when the rest of the network is in a far greater state of disrepair, requires more station managers per km and per station, runs trains twice as frequently, runs trains 50% larger, runs trains with twice the number of operators? That doesn't make sense, especially when most of the budget is spent on the surface network.

If the rest of the rapid transit system cost as much as the Sheppard subway costs to run, the budget would 3.5 billion, again without factoring the surface transit network, which accounts for more than half the TTC's budget.

A budget cut of this magnitude would be detrimental to all areas of the network. Wishing parts of the network away that don't have near perfect ridership is a dangerous and stupid precedent to set.

You can say what you want about the numbers, but those numbers come from the person who made the recommendation to close the line and he had first hand info based on his position. He is no longer with TTC and took early retirement after 25 years of service.

Bottom line, Sheppard is a money pit to please various Councillors and to push the line further east that will cost more to run in places of buses or an LRT. Current and future ridership doesn't support the need of a subway in the first place.

 

[Johnny Au]

The inability for Toronto to respond to this crisis is wholly due to provincial regulation, and the City of Toronto is ultimately the responsibility of the Province of Ontario. I don’t see why the Federal government should be coerced into propping up the City when the Province has both the fiscal and legislative ability to navigate the City out of this crisis. Do something about it, Doug.

[Doug] Ford to City: Drop Dead

 

[Streety McCarface]

You can say what you want about the numbers, but those numbers come from the person who made the recommendation to close the line and he had first hand info based on his position. He is no longer with TTC and took early retirement after 25 years of service.

Bottom line, Sheppard is a money pit to please various Councillors and to push the line further east that will cost more to run in places of buses or an LRT. Current and future ridership doesn't support the need of a subway in the first place.

Numbers don't mean anything if there's no methodology or context behind them. If he's only including passengers who use gated entrances to the Sheppard subway at Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, and Don Mills (no transfer passengers), he might be making sense, otherwise, there's no way the number is accurate.
And if that's the case, then the Yonge line is probably costing the commission about 15$ a passenger too.

 

[SubHuman]

...will explore implementing exclusive bus lanes, stop consolidation, all-door boarding and other transit priority measures to speed up bus service on Toronto’s busiest bus corridors. Over the next five years we will explore opportunities on Eglinton Avenue East, Dufferin Street, Jane Street, Steeles Avenue West and Finch Avenue East.

View attachment 218576

I think this makes a good point about how this could be useful right now.

How Toronto can make transit better now and forever after COVID-19

The pandemic has opened a window of opportunity for cities to create more efficient and equitable transit. In Toronto, that means looking to the subur...

www.thestar.com

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think this makes a good point about how this could be useful right now.

How Toronto can make transit better now and forever after COVID-19

The pandemic has opened a window of opportunity for cities to create more efficient and equitable transit. In Toronto, that means looking to the subur...

www.thestar.com

The map shows where "rapid transit" lines are needed for the future. Sorry, Ford Nation that means bus rapid transit and light rail rapid transit lines.

 

[H4F33Z]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268270014035001344

Great news! No one uses the station anyways but elevators are nice... update on dupont?