[Streety McCarface]

I don't think I have seen that reported.

I'm not quite sure I fully believe it either, given a 30-metre Flexity weights about 48 tonnes - about 8 tonnes per axle compared to a 12-metre bus which weighs 19 tonnes, or 9.5 tonnes per axle.

Is there signage that stops 3 buses at Castle Frank following each other - because that would be a higher loading?

Weight distribution can be argued for roads because the force is evenly distributed throughout the ground, but that can't really be argued in this scenario. I don't know the structural makeup of Castle Frank station, but I'm going to assume it's a simple structure of a plate supported by beams and columns in the tunnel. Plates are inherently complex structures and the bending moments within them are far more difficult to calculate, so for the sake of argument, we'll remove a dimension and pretend the plate is a beam, and the support beams are just classic pin connections. In this case, a distributed load is still going to induce numerous bending moments throughout the structure, and these moments can exceed the design of the original structure. A free body diagram would look something like this (I made point B simply supported to show the Bending Moment Diagram):

This may be the loading for the streetcar, notice how the moment can increase to 89 kN*m, compare this to an articulated bus:

Which would see a bending moment about half that of a streetcar.

Let me just clarify, this is not at all how the structural mechanics of the actual station would behave, but the point is to show the significance of bending moments. Even just the increased shear stress could force the concrete to break.

The major takeaway from this is that you have to be careful with not just the force the wheel exerts on the ground, but the location with respect to the beam supports. Streetcars have very closely spaced wheels, so having two sets close together will ultimately impact the loading of the plate it is on. You can pretty much treat it like a point load with double the mass.

 

[nfitz]

Which would see a bending moment about half that of a streetcar ...

An 18-metre bus has about half the bending moment than a 30-metre streetcar.

What about 3 buses following each other. Looking at the current Google Maps air-photo of Castle Frank there's 4 buses (and 5 cars) on top of the decking over the subway - and that's hardly a record. It's surely built to handle 10 buses.

I'm curious about this study that was mentioned. Do you have more information?

There's other options though - for example if you move that second exit structure, you could run the one part of the loop up on the south side of the subway tracks, and come back on the north side, only needing to bridge the tunnel.

 

[Streety McCarface]

An 18-metre bus has about half the bending moment than a 30-metre streetcar.

What about 3 buses following each other. Looking at the current Google Maps air-photo of Castle Frank there's 4 buses (and 5 cars) on top of the decking over the subway - and that's hardly a record. It's surely built to handle 10 buses.

I'm curious about this study you mentioned. Do you have more information?

There's other options though - for example if you move that second exit structure, you could run the one part of the loop up on the south side of the subway tracks, and come back on the north side, only needing to bridge the tunnel.

I didn't mention a study, that was @Northern Light

But the point was that the placement of the wheels on a bogie of a tram will affect the bending moments induced on the plate. Since a tram's bogie has 2 axles close together, the force will effectively still be double that of a bus. Vehicle length doesn't really matter when all loading occurs in distinct areas.

In other words, the bus may be applying 9.5 tons*g of force per axle, but because those axles are almost always evenly spaced, the strain (and therefore bending moment) induced on a plate will be pretty much always evenly distributed.

The design of the structure is obviously not one giant plate 10 meters long simply supported by 2 beams at each end, that's pretty much begging for a structural collapse. Therefore, even though the 3 buses and the one streetcar weigh about the same and have about the same length, the difference is in the placement of the axles. Since Streetcar bogies have 2 axles very close to each other, the effective load is much greater than the evenly spaced bus axles.

 

[Northern Light]

I didn't mention a study, that was @Northern Light

Uhhh, I don't think so...............

Are you thinking of this post by
@Jonny5

I believe it has been reported somewhere--I don't recall the source--that Castle Frank would need a total rebuild to accommodate streetcars because the bus loop is essentially a deck over the Bloor subway tracks below and it can't support the kind of weight required to have streetcars and track placed in there. It was projected to be a very large expense in the eight figures to retrofit the station to make that possible. They would pretty much have to demolish it and redo the whole thing.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Uhhh, I don't think so...............

Are you thinking of this post by
@Jonny5

Oops, my bad.

 

[nfitz]

But the point was that the placement of the wheels on a bogie of a tram will affect the bending moments induced on the plate. Since a tram's bogie has 2 axles close together, the force will effectively still be double that of a bus. Vehicle length doesn't really matter when all loading occurs in distinct areas. ... In other words, the bus may be applying 9.5 tons*g of force per axle, but because those axles are almost always evenly spaced, the strain (and therefore bending moment) induced on a plate will be pretty much always evenly distributed.

How are 3 buses side-by-side, moving at different speeds (some not moving at all) going to be evenly distributed?

You can't even have streetcars side-by-side.

I didn't mention a study, that was @Northern Light

Do you have more information about this study? A URL perhaps?

 

[Streety McCarface]

How are 3 buses side-by-side, moving at different speeds (some not moving at all) going to be evenly distributed?

You can't even have streetcars side-by-side.

Do you have more information about this study? A URL perhaps?

Oh, you're referring to them being side by side.
We have to remember that there is more than 2 dimensions to the structure, so there are likely cross beams that can support loads in the Z direction.

 

[nfitz]

Oh, you're referring to them being side by side.We have to remember that there is more than 2 dimensions to the structure, so there are likely cross beams that can support loads in the Z direction.

I"m referring to the current roadway over the subway station ... where you do see buses parked on both sides, with a third bus driving between them.

Remind me what you've previously read about it not being being able to support LRVs?

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Castle Frank is gonna be honest, somewhere I think the streetcar network doesn't need to go. However as many have said in the past, Coxwell is 100% somewhere eventually see streetcars, if they get rid of that parking lot in the way that is..

 

[W. K. Lis]

A more better (but more expensive) problem to be fixed at the bus bays and bus stops is to replace the asphalt with concrete, to fight rutting and knuckles. More buses (more more heavy passengers) would make the problem more visible over time.

See link on Concrete pads used to eliminate the worst bus knuckles: The Fixer.

 

[DSC]

Streetcar overhead work is progressing. The list was far longer in May:

• Parliament from Queen to King - pantograph upgrades - daytime work until late July
• St Clair from Gunns Loop to Oakwood - pantograph upgrades - until late August
• King from Yonge to Bathurst - pantograph upgrades (may temporarily effect some parking - daytime work until July

 

[Jonny5]

I don't think I have seen that reported.

I'm not quite sure I fully believe it either, given a 30-metre Flexity weights about 48 tonnes - about 8 tonnes per axle compared to a 12-metre bus which weighs 19 tonnes, or 9.5 tonnes per axle.

Is there signage that stops 3 buses at Castle Frank following each other - because that would be a higher loading?

I finally found where I read it. It was from Steve Munro. He has referenced it vaguely in response to several commenters proposing a Parliament streetcar to Castle Frank over the years, but the most clear responses are in this post from 2014:

Castle Frank, aside from having a small loop, also has, as I understand things from previous discussions of this idea, a problem with insufficient structural strength to carry a loop full of streetcars.

and this post from 2015:

Struturally, merging in a streetcar loop with the existing station would be quite a challenge. It would have to be at the mezzanine level to avoid conflicting with the subway itself, and this would likely run into utilities under Bloor Street.

I have no idea the veracity of this claim, but I recalled him saying this and there's a few more references to this on his blog elsewhere. I don't think he would simply make it up, so at some point someone he found credible must have told him this was the case.

 

[drum118]

PRESTO Tickets available at all TTC subway stations

July 8, 2019

One-ride, two-ride and day pass PRESTO Tickets are now available from the Fare Vending Machines at all TTC subway stations. The rollout of PRESTO Tickets began on April 5 at Lawrence West and Yorkdale stations.

PRESTO Tickets are ideal for people who don't use the TTC regularly and visitors to the city. A one-ride ticket costs $3.25 (same as cash fare), a two-ride ticket costs $6.50 and the day pass ticket costs $13.00. Everyone over the age of 12 must have their own PRESTO Ticket when travelling on the TTC. PRESTO Tickets are eligible for the two-hour transfer.

Customers must tap their PRESTO Ticket when entering a subway station and boarding a bus or streetcar. A tapped PRESTO Ticket is a customer's Proof-of-Payment and they should carry it with them at all times when travelling on the TTC. Unlike a PRESTO card, PRESTO Tickets are not reloadable and expire 90 days after purchase.

A re-loadable PRESTO card provides the best fare value at $3.10 per ride for adults and $2.15 for youths/seniors. They are available for $6 at all Fare Vending Machines, Shoppers Drug Mart locations in Toronto, online at prestocard.ca and the TTC Customer Service Centre at Davisville Station. Customers can load funds onto the card to pay-as-they-go or purchase a TTC monthly pass. PRESTO cards can also be set to automatically top-up funds or renew passes so that customers never run out of funds. By setting up a My PRESTO Account, the card balance and monthly pass are protected if the card is ever lost or damaged.

Visit ttc.ca/presto to learn more about PRESTO Tickets.

 

[Northern Light]

From The Star, on replicating the success of King Street elsewhere in town.

TTC vehicles get caught in gridlock too often. Should the King Street pilot project be replicated?

Spurred on in part by improvements to streetcar service on King St. downtown, Toronto transit planners are eyeing significant changes that would give transit vehicles priority over other road users on high-volume routes across the city.

www.thestar.com

To me the 'Quick Wins' would be:

Don Mills from Wynford north to Sheppard. Just change the HOV to TTC only , put in bollards wherever driveways are more than 10m apart, eliminate lay-bys.

College/Carlton from Parliament to Manning. This is the wider bit of the road, you could go 'exclusive ROW' here, but you could also move to ban left turns off the street car tracks, and put barriers
preventing cars from going through/across the tracks except at intersections, and otherwise remove parking, if it blocks the remaining car lane.

Lawrence Avenue East from the DVP to Kennedy is another good stretch where taking over the curb or centre lanes for transit should be feasible, low-cost and not too disruptive.

 

[robmausser]

From The Star, on replicating the success of King Street elsewhere in town.

TTC vehicles get caught in gridlock too often. Should the King Street pilot project be replicated?

Spurred on in part by improvements to streetcar service on King St. downtown, Toronto transit planners are eyeing significant changes that would give transit vehicles priority over other road users on high-volume routes across the city.

www.thestar.com

To me the 'Quick Wins' would be:

Don Mills from Wynford north to Sheppard. Just change the HOV to TTC only , put in bollards wherever driveways are more than 10m apart, eliminate lay-bys.

College/Carlton from Parliament to Manning. This is the wider bit of the road, you could go 'exclusive ROW' here, but you could also move to ban left turns off the street car tracks, and put barriers
preventing cars from going through/across the tracks except at intersections, and otherwise remove parking, if it blocks the remaining car lane.

Lawrence Avenue East from the DVP to Kennedy is another good stretch where taking over the curb or centre lanes for transit should be feasible, low-cost and not too disruptive.

Id like to see the York University Busway extended along the Finch corridor and provide an east-west express service.

There are actually quite a few destinations along the route; both Finch subways, the Barrie Line, Old Cummer GO, eventual Finch Stouffville station, Seneca College, A cluster of high rises along Bayview.

Could link up with Highway 400 in the west and terminate at the Toronto Zoo in the east.

There are some obstacles along the way, like the G Ross Lord Reservoir, but the nice thing about busways is that they can link back up to roads, like Finch Ave on the south, they don't have to be one continuous line like an LRT.

Some areas have houses close by, but using electric buses only on the route could mitigate noise and pollution complaints.