[Admiral Beez]

Leading indicators. As in the increase in homelessness and drug use - readily available, not lagging which is actual incidents (TPS data).

I kinda assumed that with the rise of fentanyl and other toxic supply issues that illegal drug use would self correct itself and reduce public use in downtown east where I live. But I guess for every exit there’s another willing arm. What a world.

 

[T3G]

Leading indicators. As in the increase in homelessness and drug use - readily available, not lagging which is actual incidents (TPS data).

It’s funny how much people complain about design when all they rely on is lagging indicators. And lol on tone when you can be quite dismissive yourself.

No one said you have to wait for things to get worse before any action is taken. This may come as a shock to you, but it's possible to be tough on violent crime, and support mental health treatment, even if people aren't being attacked on the TTC every single day!

I never said that you shouldn't try to improve the city, or try to quash the extant violent crime rate. We could've been better. What I object to, and this would be quite plain if you re-read my post, is the idea that the violent crime rate throughout 2022 supported the fear based narratives. It didn't. It never has. A few high profile violent incidents occurred on the TTC in 2022. These shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but there was nothing unusual about them - in most years, you see a few of these occurring - and it certainly didn't support the narrative that you gambled with your life just by stepping on the TTC.

I am starting to think things may be different now because we appear to be at a point where we are at one violent attack every single day. There have been, if memory serves, 5 incidents since Chinese New Year. That is why I am starting to get concerned, not because of your world class debating.

 

[dusk]

It seems strange that there’s even a discussion to be had about whether this is concerning.

People being lit on fire, thrown onto tracks, stabbed, etc is not normal and should be met with zero tolerance.

There’s a lot of advocates that seriously misunderstand the issue since they don’t live in the midst of it on a daily basis.

It’s easy to be compassionate from forest hill.

The number of deranged people on transit and on sidewalks has gone up 3-5x and that’s coming from someone living in the st Lawrence market area and not far from moss park.

1. We need police at every major transit station.
2. We need junkies forceably removed from ttc stations (and the surrounding area) instead of letting them shoot up (I’ve seen it at Dundas station)
3. We need jail terms for assault that are strict

 

[nfitz]

1. We need police at every major transit station.
2. We need junkies forceably removed from ttc stations (and the surrounding area) instead of letting them shoot up (I’ve seen it at Dundas station)
3. We need jail terms for assault that are strict

Would be cheaper and simpler, to simply put in enough money to reduce homelessness and provide a basic income.

Not to mention increase funding and facilities to treat mental health.

Jailing the handful that do assault people, does little to prevent future incidents. It's simply doesn't work as a deterrent to someone not in our reality.

 

[Rufus8]

Would be cheaper and simpler, to simply put in enough money to reduce homelessness and provide a basic income.

Not to mention increase funding and facilities to treat mental health.

Jailing the handful that do assault people, does little to prevent future incidents. It's simply doesn't work as a deterrent to someone not in our reality.

What is needed is a return to institutions, some people can not handle day-to-day living. Sending someone a cheque once a month and giving them a phone number is nothing when you compare what it takes to manage, my short list - manage monthly budget, get alone with neighbours, clean house, go shopping, buy affordable food, cook aforementioned food, clean up after cooking, take out garbage, mop the floor, do the laundry, deal with noise from upstairs. Now try doing all of that when your brain is like a funfair.
Some people really can't handle independence, it is CRUEL to expect them to do it. They usually end up in jail when their life is totally out of control and is probably a huge relief. As for drug addicts if they can't/won't stop they should be in a safe residential setting. The current legal framework suggests everyone has equal capacity to manage life and that is just not true, they are not less than us they have different needs. If you passed someone on the street bleeding profusely from a gaping wound would you give them a phone number and tell them to get on with it? This is not particular to Toronto it is happening all over the world. Isolation has left people with little impulse control around strangers.

 

[Northern Light]

What is needed is a return to institutions, some people can not handle day-to-day living. Sending someone a cheque once a month and giving them a phone number is nothing when you compare what it takes to manage, my short list - manage monthly budget, get alone with neighbours, clean house, go shopping, buy affordable food, cook aforementioned food, clean up after cooking, take out garbage, mop the floor, do the laundry, deal with noise from upstairs. Now try doing all of that when your brain is like a funfair.
Some people really can't handle independence, it is CRUEL to expect them to do it. They usually end up in jail when their life is totally out of control and is probably a huge relief. As for drug addicts if they can't/won't stop they should be in a safe residential setting. The current legal framework suggests everyone has equal capacity to manage life and that is just not true, they are not less than us they have different needs. If you passed someone on the street bleeding profusely from a gaping wound would you give them a phone number and tell them to get on with it? This is not particular to Toronto it is happening all over the world. Isolation has left people with little impulse control around strangers.

I don't think what your saying actually contradicts what @nfitz said.

For those that are homeless, but not dangerous to themselves or others, merely in need of assistance, finding housing and enough income for a phone, food, a bi-monthly haircut etc. its surely cheaper to provide them said income once you've set things right. (gotten them a check-up. a hair cut, and a place to call home).

That is not to suggest that every person out there can function on their own or is not not a danger to others. Many (though a minority overall among the homeless) are indeed in need of greater oversight, at the very least in the short-term, and perhaps in many cases, the longer-term as well.

You're quite right about that.

But on any given night there are 12,000-15,000 homeless in Toronto; those with serious mental illness, or who pose an active danger to others is a much smaller number.

We neither can, nor should put 15,000 people in regular jail or in mental institutions. By my math, using fairly typical costing for healthcare beds (non-acute), you're looking at 2B-5.5B per year to achieve that. (depending on how secure the facilities are).

So for 2%, 3% maybe 5% of the of that number, (up to 750) long-term institutional care may be the right answer. Perhaps twice that number would benefit from the same in the short term to become 'sober' and/or properly medicated etc. and may require some level of assisted-living later.

The rest are largely in poverty, because they need money/housing and for those, it would cheaper to provide same, as opposed to institutionalized care.

 

[MisterF]

What is needed is a return to institutions, some people can not handle day-to-day living. Sending someone a cheque once a month and giving them a phone number is nothing when you compare what it takes to manage, my short list - manage monthly budget, get alone with neighbours, clean house, go shopping, buy affordable food, cook aforementioned food, clean up after cooking, take out garbage, mop the floor, do the laundry, deal with noise from upstairs. Now try doing all of that when your brain is like a funfair.
Some people really can't handle independence, it is CRUEL to expect them to do it. They usually end up in jail when their life is totally out of control and is probably a huge relief. As for drug addicts if they can't/won't stop they should be in a safe residential setting. The current legal framework suggests everyone has equal capacity to manage life and that is just not true, they are not less than us they have different needs. If you passed someone on the street bleeding profusely from a gaping wound would you give them a phone number and tell them to get on with it? This is not particular to Toronto it is happening all over the world. Isolation has left people with little impulse control around strangers.

There are a lot of different mental illnesses with varying severity. The appropriate treatments are just as varied. Some people need to be fully institutionalized. Some can live in group homes. Some can live almost fully independently, with only periodic check-ins from support workers. Even the most visibly unstable mentally ill people can often live normally with the proper support. There's no one size fits all solution.

The problem is when we don't bother funding those solutions. We as a society have spent decades closing facilities, cutting funding, and laying off staff. This mental health and public safety crisis we're now experiencing is our reward. And we keep electing politicians who just make things worse.

 

[dusk]

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/01/25/toronto-ttc-subway-broadview-station-robbery-video/

We almost made it 24 hours.

Lock these people up and throw away the key.

 

[dusk]

The other thing I’m kinda of amazed about is how we let people with their pants down, walking around with shit stains on their clothes under the guise of freedom.

Sorry, but that’s silly. If someone cannot operate with a basic level of decency the rest of the 99.5% if the city should the held hostage.

 

[Steve X]

It's time to bring back the death penalty. If we can't heal them cause we got no money, just get rid of them. I had enough of these news.

 

[dusk]

It's time to bring back the death penalty. If we can't heal them cause we got no money, just get rid of them. I had enough of these news.

I'm anti death penalty but honestly I understand your frustration.

People will start attacking the homeless and mentally ill themselves if we don't act.

 

[turbanplanner]

Oh I dont know, let's see. He's dragged his foot out on providing affordable housing on city sites, then wouldnt provide additional funding for shelters which are at capacity, then kicked out homeless people out of virtually everywhere. That's just one subset of the population who have been through his diddling and are probably mentally at their wits end as we've been seeing recently. Of course this doesnt excuse the general idiots we have in population.

I havent even got to the lack of proper funding to various city departments, waste of corporate tax incentives, lack of investment in city infrastructure, inadequate revenue base (ie: property tax rate increase at or below inflation for ions). We can cry about the downloading of costs, but Tory has just compounded the problem tenfold since he's been mayor. Of course both Fords compounded it one hundred fold, but Tory hasnt improved the situation at all.

And as we speak, there's been yet another incident on the TTC...stabbing on a bus near Old Mill.

So when is enough, enough with our current administration? Do these incidents need to hit a member of politics before we see any change to the lack of nothing we've seen our politicians enact?

Toronto, Canada and Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News News business news stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

I think a lot of issues like homeless in parks, we are willing to ignore until it becomes too extreme. The city is spending $500 million a year on the homeless issue with no help from the province or federal government, and we're getting a 30% tax hike over the next 2 years just to keep up our substandard level of city services. If people weren't setting bridges on fire, or attacking eachother I think people would be fine with them in parks for the time being.

What should Tory do, especially now with that huge tax hike coming up?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bridge-fire-bloor-sherbourne-1.5424463

Explosion reported under Toronto bridge, police say - Toronto | Globalnews.ca

Toronto police said an explosion was reported at 11:11 p.m. on Saturday under a bridge in the Bathurst Street and Fort York Boulevard.

globalnews.ca

 

[Amare]

I think a lot of issues like homeless in parks, we are willing to ignore until it becomes too extreme. The city is spending $500 million a year on the homeless issue with no help from the province or federal government, and we're getting a 30% tax hike over the next 2 years just to keep up our substandard level of city services. If people weren't setting bridges on fire, or attacking eachother I think people would be fine with them in parks for the time being.

What should Tory do, especially now with that huge tax hike coming up?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bridge-fire-bloor-sherbourne-1.5424463

Explosion reported under Toronto bridge, police say - Toronto | Globalnews.ca

Toronto police said an explosion was reported at 11:11 p.m. on Saturday under a bridge in the Bathurst Street and Fort York Boulevard.

globalnews.ca

Well you've pretty much summed up the funding issues and that's my point, we ignore the issues that we face until it becomes extreme. Which is pretty much John Tory's mantra: delay, defer, put on the approved but unfunded never ending list of projects, and beg upper levels of government for funding. By the time we get to addressing said problem, it becomes magnified even more and the state of affairs is worse than it initially was.

That's the problem we've been having in this city for 8+ years, and it's a big reason nothing ever gets done. If something actually does get done, it takes eons because we cant fund anything or our "leadership" genuinely is unable to come up with a solution.

 

[Richard White]

Well you've pretty much summed up the funding issues and that's my point, we ignore the issues that we face until it becomes extreme. Which is pretty much John Tory's mantra: delay, defer, put on the approved but unfunded never ending list of projects, and beg upper levels of government for funding. By the time we get to addressing said problem, it becomes magnified even more and the state of affairs is worse than it initially was.

That's the problem we've been having in this city for 8+ years, and it's a big reason nothing ever gets done. If something actually does get done, it takes eons because we cant fund anything or our "leadership" genuinely is unable to come up with a solution.

Perhaps we should move this to the Mayor John Tory thread?

 

[Amare]

^Dont see why we should, the problems we're seeing with the TTC in recent times with increase in rates of violence and substandard service levels over the past X amount of months/years are one's that go hand in hand with his administration. It's a catch all thread, it's fair talk in my books.