[Rainforest]

We all know how well TTC executes grand plans such as developing a network from scratch.

True, though the problem is mostly caused by the messy political environment rather than TTC itself.

Best option would be to build Finch West with in-median ROW for buses. They can put in the tracks later when the need arises.

I suppose this is a possibility, as long as reliable artic buses can be purchased.

 

[gweed123]

We all know how well TTC executes grand plans such as developing a network from scratch. Best option would be to build Finch West with in-median ROW for buses. They can put in the tracks later when the need arises.

Agreed, although I would go with shoulder lanes instead. That way it's just a straight road widening and there's no need for massive intersection reconfigurations (or limitations to left hand turns). Halton Region is doing all shoulder bus lanes, as does Ottawa.

And yes, artics are a must.

 

[EnviroTO]

Wasn't there already a study stating that conversion was not worth it and would be more expensive than leaving Sheppard as a subway?

You don't need a study to tell you that. Obviously converting the existing subway to LRT would be more expensive than leaving it as is. That is comparing "Do Nothing" to "Do Something" and doing nothing is always cheaper. Whether or not it is worth it is subjective. If the only way to stop people from wasting money on extending the subway is to convert it to LRT then it would save billions of dollars, whereas if the LRT can be built on Sheppard East leaving the Sheppard subway as is then it would save hundreds of millions. You need to put a very high price on the cost of a transfer at Don Mills, especially due to lower ridership, to have conversion to LRT make sense in any business case.

Why are you assuming converting Sheppard to LRT wouldn't be that expensive? On the contrary, it is a huge job to do that.

No, I agree there is a cost to converting the current subway tunnel to LRT and that it probably isn't worth it. But there is no way the cost of converting 5.5km of subway to LRT is anywhere near the cost of building 9km of new subway. We have to live with the fact that Sheppard as a subway was a bad idea, not convert it to LRT, and force people to transfer because the cost of converting it to LRT is substantial, and the cost of extending the subway is far more substantial.

The steps of converting the subway to LRT are (a) replacement bus service, (b) remove the platforms to build them at a lower level, (c) remedy elevator and escalator elevation differences to platform (in pre-metro systems this is usually accomplished via ramps and steps so modification of the escalator and elevators is unlikely, (d) convert the track gauge (because Metrolinx decided to break with tradition), (e) adjust electrical. Those steps do not include new load-carrying structural elements which by far is the larger cost in projects so I find it crazy to think that building 9km of surface LRT (with their concrete pad stations) and converting 5.5km of tunnels to LRT comes anywhere near the costs of building 9km of new grade separated metro with new elevated or underground stations. It just isn't believable. What possibly could be under the existing platforms that would make lowering them a meter and building the new floor to handle the load of pedestrians so expensive? Wouldn't the platforms be hollow as every picture of the building of station boxes suggests that the bottom of the station box is level with the track and the structure is build up from there.

First off, I do not think that 150m stations are needed - they do not exist on the existing part of the Sheppard Subway. I think 90 or 100m stations are enough.

All the existing parts of the Sheppard Subway are 150m stations, with a temporary wall blocking access to the platform unused by 4 car trains. At some point Sheppard will have an orphan fleet since the new Rockets can't go there unless the platforms are opened up to their full length.

 

[tomms]

Thought this might be relevant ...

.

 

[balenciaga]

There are still people who actually believe the so called downtown relief line mostly serve downtown residents?? I thought everyone knew it is about making the commute for those suburbanites working downtown easier.

I live right by the financial district, literally within 10 minutes walking to Bay/King. I can't imagine how little use the DRL will have to me once it is constructed, yet I still believe it IS our top priority. We downtowners don't need the DRL believe it or not. It is those who have to commute 20KM a day who do.

Downtown of course has much better transit and it should. You can't choose to live in a low density neighbourhood but expects the extensive transit in high density areas.

If you look at Chicago's subways, pretty much all of their eight lines go to the LOOP, why? because that makes more sense.

 

[11th]

All the existing parts of the Sheppard Subway are 150m stations, with a temporary wall blocking access to the platform unused by 4 car trains. At some point Sheppard will have an orphan fleet since the new Rockets can't go there unless the platforms are opened up to their full length.

Aren't the TR cars designed to be expandable (to 7-cars) ? They should be able to be rearranged into 4-cars trains as well. If not, then the design is very stupid.

No, I agree there is a cost to converting the current subway tunnel to LRT and that it probably isn't worth it. But there is no way the cost of converting 5.5km of subway to LRT is anywhere near the cost of building 9km of new subway. We have to live with the fact that Sheppard as a subway was a bad idea, not convert it to LRT, and force people to transfer because the cost of converting it to LRT is substantial, and the cost of extending the subway is far more substantial.

It might be so on the this forum (that people think the subway was a bad idea). We are still basing this on the current route, Yonge-Don Mills. Would a route from Agincourt-Downsview be a bad idea? Maybe not; even some who are pro-SELRT would agree to that. Is spending more (than converting to LRT) to get a complete subway from Agincourt to Downsview worth the money (couple that with all-day service on Barrie, Stouffville and Richmond Hill GO lines)? That is debatable.

If you look at Chicago's subways, pretty much all of their eight lines go to the LOOP, why? because that makes more sense.

Not that it's directly related, but Chicago also has expressways that go right up to the doorsteps of the Loop.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It could be reclassified as an Uptown line and continue as a subway diverging from Sheppard and following the route of the 401, and not have a stop at every bus route but be express like all the way to Rouge Hill.

Short lines downtown for the purpose of transferring people to new lines to better be able to go where they need to go which also bodes well for crowd control would benefit everyone. A short Dundas Line can connect Gerrard Square and Dundas Square in a straight line avoiding Union and the YUS altogether. Then it can have a Cabbagetown interchange to do the same for Richmond Hill GO line, and it could continue west to hit up the hospitals and court houses and Chinatown as well.

 

[whatever]

It might be so on the this forum (that people think the subway was a bad idea). We are still basing this on the current route, Yonge-Don Mills. Would a route from Agincourt-Downsview be a bad idea? Maybe not; even some who are pro-SELRT would agree to that. Is spending more (than converting to LRT) to get a complete subway from Agincourt to Downsview worth the money (couple that with all-day service on Barrie, Stouffville and Richmond Hill GO lines)?

You actually raise a good point. I wonder what impact a Yonge-Downsview extension would have on Sheppard ridership. Perhaps the prudent plan would be to run the line out to Downsview and wait a couple years to reassess the ridership. I suspect that a westward extension (coupled with subway service to York) might boost the Sheppard numbers enough to make us want to re-evaluate the eastward expansion (whether LRT or subway)
.

 

[Dan416]

I definitely think they should extend it to Sheppard West (aka Downsview) sooner rather than later. I like the idea of having some trans from Don Mills go to York University, and others go from Finch to York University. Not sure if it'd work, but it sounds like an idea.

 

[Neil]

I definitely think they should extend it to Sheppard West (aka Downsview) sooner rather than later. I like the idea of having some trans from Don Mills go to York University, and others go from Finch to York University. Not sure if it'd work, but it sounds like an idea.

I agree, but unfortunately it would also be very popular in the other direction and contribute to overloading the Yonge line further. A DRL may be a prerequisite for this connection as well.

 

[gweed123]

You actually raise a good point. I wonder what impact a Yonge-Downsview extension would have on Sheppard ridership. Perhaps the prudent plan would be to run the line out to Downsview and wait a couple years to reassess the ridership. I suspect that a westward extension (coupled with subway service to York) might boost the Sheppard numbers enough to make us want to re-evaluate the eastward expansion (whether LRT or subway)
.

That is an interesting point. A western Sheppard Subway expansion wouldn't cost that much more than the current SELRT plan.

As a side note, does anyone know where the crossovers will be located on the Spadina extension? If there is one just south of Finch West Station, it could potentially be configured to have Sheppard trains run to Finch West station, or 1 station further to York University, depending on the location of the crossovers. This would reduce the need for Finch West buses running between Finch West and Finch stations, seeing as how it would provide a ride all the way to Sheppard-Yonge via the Spadina and then Sheppard Subways.

That may be something worth considering if it's technically feasible. Running the trains all the way up to Vaughan may not work as well, but if there's a logical short-turn point between Vaughan and Downsview (Sheppard West), then it may be worth looking into.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The former Giambrone suggested only running one in 2 trains to the University, and in in 4 to Vaughn, so that was already taken into consideration.

A DRL at best would work as an eastern equivalent of the Spadina Line with King and Queen St. local service. For long distance travel we need Toronto Expressrail along the corridors with up to 20 minute intervals off peak, and not stop at every bus route of course. For it to be the backbone of any long distance travel within the city.

GO can just provide express services from the 905 and only stop downtown.

 

[gweed123]

The former Giambrone suggested only running one in 2 trains to the University, and in in 4 to Vaughn, so that was already taken into consideration.

Do you happen to know where that 'midpoint' short-turn was located? I would imagine it would be before either Finch West or York University station, I just don't know exactly which.

From a utility of the Sheppard Subway perspective, having trains running from Don Mills to York U would be a huge boost for a lot of eastern Toronto York U students. And as I mentioned earlier, it would make the Finch West LRT feel like less of a spur line, because the Finch West LRT would be feeding directly into the terminus (or 1 station off of the terminus) of the Sheppard Subway, allowing for direct access to either downtown via the Spadina Subway, or North York via the Sheppard Subway. The frequencies on both of these lines are low enough that interlining shouldn't be a problem.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Do you happen to know where that 'midpoint' short-turn was located? I would imagine it would be before either Finch West or York University station, I just don't know exactly which.

From a utility of the Sheppard Subway perspective, having trains running from Don Mills to York U would be a huge boost for a lot of eastern Toronto York U students. And as I mentioned earlier, it would make the Finch West LRT feel like less of a spur line, because the Finch West LRT would be feeding directly into the terminus (or 1 station off of the terminus) of the Sheppard Subway, allowing for direct access to either downtown via the Spadina Subway, or North York via the Sheppard Subway. The frequencies on both of these lines are low enough that interlining shouldn't be a problem.

but is it really worth the $1 billion dollar pricetag that the Sheppard west extension would cost? I think there are many other things higher on the priority list.

 

[gweed123]

but is it really worth the $1 billion dollar pricetag that the Sheppard west extension would cost? I think there are many other things higher on the priority list.

I'd gladly take that money from the Sheppard East LRT and put it towards the Sheppard West extension instead. Certainly in terms of peak hour ridership the western extension would be better used.

Obviously not as high on the list as the DRL, but if the Federal money needs to be spent on Sheppard, certainly Sheppard West seems like a logical place to put it.