[11th]

No, even with a route from Finch-Weston through to Scarborough Centre a subway would have been a bad idea because money would have been wasted since the capacity of a subway is not required now or in 50 years from now. The YUS is a subway built 50 years ago and it goes right through the core of the city with the only freeway having 4 to 6 lanes. There will never be a trip generator even a third that size on the Sheppard line running parallel to a 12 to 16 lane freeway. Definitely if the Sheppard subway ran from Finch-Weston to Scarborough Centre it would be a far more useful piece of infrastructure, but since it could have been built as something smaller scale more suited to the anticipated ridership at a fraction of the cost it would be a waste of money.

I think you were replying to the another post. I didn't suggest having the subway to run from Finch-Weston to STC, just Downsview to Agincourt. With "Downsview to Agincourt", BRT can serve the area east and west of the subway route.

 

[BurlOak]

You may not even need the extra platform there. If Spadina is short-turning at some point further south from there, then theoretically there would be a 'slot' open for a Sheppard train further up the line. If capacity really becomes a problem (which it won't for a long time), a 2nd platform and 3rd track for Sheppard can be added way in the future.

Run Spadina trains to Downsview, Sheppard trains to York U, and Spadina trains to Vaughan. That way you get that stratified service on the Spadina extension, while adequately serving that crosstown pattern.

That is what I was thinking. There is a planned short-turn on the northbound Spadina at the current Downsview Station. The Sheppard line would feed into the Spadina line north of this station and associated cross-overs. There is also a fair bit of space on the Sheppard Line west of the existing Downsview Station to store trains, if needed, so they can be slotted into the Spadina line at the correct time to make sure the frequency of service is optimized on Spadina line.

As you said earlier, this way the Sheppard subway goes from York U (or Steeles West - not sure exactly where the next set of cross-over tracks are) to Don Mills (or Agincourt GO). This northern crosstown line can be accessed from the Sheppard East bus, Finch West bus (or LRT) and maybe the Steeles West bus.

I really think Toronto has an overfascination with 'crosstown' routes which completely miss the city's biggest destination (downtown..), forcing everyone to transfer onto the YUS. Like, even looking on a map, it would be insane to have two radial routes linked by 3 orbital routes.

You are correct on this, but the previous Mayor and Premier both decided that about $6B should be spent on a midtown crosstown line and $2.2B on a northern crosstown route. Could this $2.2B be better spend on a radial route - of course. But if it is to be spent on a northern crosstown route, there seem to be better options (than the current LRT plan) that help utilize existing infrastructure and create a better overall system.

 

[ShonTron]

I readily acknowledge the 16,000 isn't an earth shattering number of people, but to put this in perspective more than a dozen of those routes with higher ridership are already either serviced by or going to be serviced by higher order transit (i.e.; the streetcar network, and the routes that are already due to be replaced with LRT or subway service). Many of the remaining routes would be exceedingly difficult to upgrade to higher order transit (either because the lines would be orphaned from the network, or lack of space, or engineering difficulties). Other routes are exceptionally long, particularly in comparison to the relatively short 84.

The 84 is an interesting route that's hard to peg by line-by-line ridership stats and its numbers are lower than the TTC's list states. Weekdays, the "missing link" section is augmented by the 196B. The section west of Downsview is paralleled by the 106 and the 108. The 84 is no fun between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge, especially weekends, but that could be easily solved by having full service on the 196B and/or extending either the 106 or 108 east.

Sheppard West has some merit for connectivity sake and operational improvements (service disruptions, carhouse movements), but still ranks low on my list of new subways needed.

 

[BurlOak]

I suppose 1 other option would be to have the Sheppard interlined with the Southbound Spadina line. Instead of every second train short-turning at Downsview, every second train would turn Eastbound onto the Sheppard Subway. Then a westbound Sheppard train would take its (the train the would have short-turned) place going Southbound. The downside of this is that it involves almost a 270 degree turn with a radius of about 300m. (The Spadina line will have a 310m radius curve that is about 50 degrees to turn off of Allen Road).

There would be some issues with running 7 car trains on Sheppard. If Sheppard would run at half the frequency of the Spadina Line (at all times), then Sheppard line may not even need a Downsview Station (at Allen and Sheppard) since every Sheppard train would stop at the current Downsview Station. This would allow a Sheppard Station at Faywood.

PS. This would mean it is a one seat ride from Yonge/Finch to Sheppard/Don Mills.

 

[gweed123]

That is what I was thinking. There is a planned short-turn on the northbound Spadina at the current Downsview Station. The Sheppard line would feed into the Spadina line north of this station and associated cross-overs. There is also a fair bit of space on the Sheppard Line west of the existing Downsview Station to store trains, if needed, so they can be slotted into the Spadina line at the correct time to make sure the frequency of service is optimized on Spadina line.

As you said earlier, this way the Sheppard subway goes from York U (or Steeles West - not sure exactly where the next set of cross-over tracks are) to Don Mills (or Agincourt GO). This northern crosstown line can be accessed from the Sheppard East bus, Finch West bus (or LRT) and maybe the Steeles West bus.

Yup exactly. Downsview isn't really a 'must-hit' in my opinion. Downsview Park is a bigger one, because of the connection to the GO line.

Slotting Sheppard trains in going northbound would be more of a challenge than southbound trains, but given the fact that some Spadina trains are stopping at Downsview, the Sheppard trains can fit into that same time slot as the Spadina train that's stopping. Shouldn't be too big of an issue until the frequencies get much higher.

Sheppard West has some merit for connectivity sake and operational improvements (service disruptions, carhouse movements), but still ranks low on my list of new subways needed.

I would definitely agree with this. Here's where I would rank it:

1) DRL (interlined with the University-Spadina Subway, Union to Pape)
2) Yonge Subway ext (as part of the DRL reconfiguration, King to a new Union platform or Southcore)
3) Bloor-Danforth (Kennedy to Sheppard & McCowan, assuming the SRT replacement can be changed)
4) DRL (Pape to Don Mills & Eglinton)
5) North Yonge ext (Finch to RHC)
6) Sheppard West ext (Yonge to Downsview, interlined with Spadina to York U)
7) Sheppard East ext (Don Mills to Victoria Park)
8) West Yonge ext (either Union or Southcore to Dufferin Station via the Ex)

As you can see, pretty far down the list, but one of the few projects that can be done for under $2 billion. That would likely make funds more available (especially if they're taken from the SELRT), and thus would probably move the project up the list slightly.

 

[BurlOak]

Yup exactly. Downsview isn't really a 'must-hit' in my opinion. Downsview Park is a bigger one, because of the connection to the GO line.

Slotting Sheppard trains in going northbound would be more of a challenge than southbound trains, but given the fact that some Spadina trains are stopping at Downsview, the Sheppard trains can fit into that same time slot as the Spadina train that's stopping. Shouldn't be too big of an issue until the frequencies get much higher.

I would definitely agree with this. Here's where I would rank it:

1) DRL (interlined with the University-Spadina Subway, Union to Pape)
2) Yonge Subway ext (as part of the DRL reconfiguration, King to a new Union platform or Southcore)
3) Bloor-Danforth (Kennedy to Sheppard & McCowan, assuming the SRT replacement can be changed)
4) DRL (Pape to Don Mills & Eglinton)
5) North Yonge ext (Finch to RHC)
6) Sheppard West ext (Yonge to Downsview, interlined with Spadina to York U)
7) Sheppard East ext (Don Mills to Victoria Park)
8) West Yonge ext (either Union or Southcore to Dufferin Station via the Ex)

As you can see, pretty far down the list, but one of the few projects that can be done for under $2 billion. That would likely make funds more available (especially if they're taken from the SELRT), and thus would probably move the project up the list slightly.

So you are saying that it is the number one priority for (exclusively) Toronto transit north of 401.
You mentioned taking money from SELRT - is FWLRT a priority or can money be taken from there too?

 

[M II A II R II K]

Sounds like a load of trouble for something that would be sparsely trafficked. Just have more service from Downsview Park and if you're going downtown you could then get off at Lansdowne, Parkdale, or Union.

 

[gweed123]

So you are saying that it is the number one priority for (exclusively) Toronto transit north of 401.
You mentioned taking money from SELRT - is FWLRT a priority or can money be taken from there too?

Well the North Yonge extension is higher up my list, but I don't think that qualifies in your books as 'exclusively' Toronto transit. And he specified new SUBWAYS needed, not new TRANSIT needed.

North of the 401 in Toronto, the highest rapid transit priority is the Finch BRT (from Malton Station across Finch all the way to McCowan, then down McCowan to a B-D station at Sheppard & McCowan). Sheppard West is just the highest priority subway project north of the 401 exclusively in Toronto.

 

[Rainforest]

I suppose 1 other option would be to have the Sheppard interlined with the Southbound Spadina line. Instead of every second train short-turning at Downsview, every second train would turn Eastbound onto the Sheppard Subway. Then a westbound Sheppard train would take its (the train the would have short-turned) place going Southbound. The downside of this is that it involves almost a 270 degree turn with a radius of about 300m. (The Spadina line will have a 310m radius curve that is about 50 degrees to turn off of Allen Road).

View attachment 9910

It might be costly to add a new connection to the underground Downsview Park station. Plus, I am not sure if the subway is allowed to run under the Downsview landing strip.

If the goal is to interline Sheppard with southbound Spadina, then it should be easier to veer the Sheppard line south-west at the Wilson Heights intersection, and connect to Spadina line halfway between Downsview and Wilson. The line runs on surface there, and quite a bit of empty space is available to the east. If necessary, Allen Road can be just shifted 10 - 15 m east to make room for the subway connection.

Wilson would become the last common station, after that one branch would serve Downsview and continue to VCC, whereas the other would go to Faywood station and continue along Sheppard.

 

[nhui06]

Sheppard LRT really should be turned into a BRT with the new longer articulated buses. This way, they can keep the popular 190 route between Don Mills and STC (turn down Brimley). Use the savings to either extend the Sheppard Subway to Vic Park (business park and popular Vic Park route), or extend west to Downsview Station (provide a proper connection between the Y/U line; which will be needed when they finish their respective northern extensions).

 

[ssiguy2]

I've always thought the best option for Sheppard expansion was an extention to Sheppard West {forget the east of DM stations section} and interline the route with Spadina north of Sheppard to Finch and then elevate the line along the Finch Hydro corridor to west of the 400. It would make for a seamless route and the money spent on the Finch LRT could be used for an elevated subway. In short make the route a Finch/Sheppard route. They could have half the Spadina trains head east along Finch as well. It would cost relatively little and would certianly not cost more than the Finc LRT will and be very easy to build.

 

[BurlOak]

It might be costly to add a new connection to the underground Downsview Park station. Plus, I am not sure if the subway is allowed to run under the Downsview landing strip.

If the goal is to interline Sheppard with southbound Spadina, then it should be easier to veer the Sheppard line south-west at the Wilson Heights intersection, and connect to Spadina line halfway between Downsview and Wilson. The line runs on surface there, and quite a bit of empty space is available to the east. If necessary, Allen Road can be just shifted 10 - 15 m east to make room for the subway connection.

Wilson would become the last common station, after that one branch would serve Downsview and continue to VCC, whereas the other would go to Faywood station and continue along Sheppard.

You are correct, this is much simpler. The Spadina northbound to Sheppard eastbound ramp would be just over 300m radius - the same as the "Allen curve" on the Spadina line just north of the current Downsview Station. The Sheppard westbound to Spadina southbound ramp would have to go under the Spadina line to join in from the west side.

 

[sixrings]

conversion to lrt would seem much simpler then what anyone here is suggesting with these sheppard west subway plans.

 

[EnviroTO]

Sheppard LRT really should be turned into a BRT with the new longer articulated buses. This way, they can keep the popular 190 route between Don Mills and STC (turn down Brimley). Use the savings to either extend the Sheppard Subway to Vic Park (business park and popular Vic Park route), or extend west to Downsview Station (provide a proper connection between the Y/U line; which will be needed when they finish their respective northern extensions).

BRT is fine if the anticipated ridership fits easily on an articulated bus, but why turn around and use the savings on a Sheppard subway extension? It makes no sense unless you are suggesting that ridership will sky rocket on Sheppard due to a Vic Park extension and at Vic Park drops to something that fits on an articulated bus. The first question is "does the ridership projections require bus, BRT/LRT, or subway". The second question is is the intent to serve local customers along the route, or to serve nodes at which the customer will transfer to another transit option? The last question is how much is the transit improvement meant to be a sign of commitment to developers that transit is viable and there to stay?

 

[Solid Snake]

conversion to lrt would seem much simpler then what anyone here is suggesting with these sheppard west subway plans.

or maybe for once we should respect the fact that people on Sheppard East don't want it. Why is it always people who don't live there or won't use it who think they know better?

Reports from Metrolinx said it's too expensive, complex and not worth it. Sheppard West will happen. The question is when...