[nfitz]

Queen Street East suffered a very similar fate to the Danforth in the 60s and 70s. Both had a streetcar, one kept it, one didn't. Given that they both experienced a similar decline, I don't think the subway can be blamed.

Gerrard East has also had a major decline, falling further than both Danforth and Queen East - and unlike Queen East, has yet to recover. Perhaps this has little to do with subways.

 

[gweed123]

Improving the Main St-Danforth GO connection may be an easier way to handle the express demand. If price is no object, we could have a DRL with standard downtown stop spacing on a Queen alignment as well as a new underground GO station on Wellington.

That would help for relieving the B-D line, but in order to truly be effective, you need the Richmond Hill line to relieve some of the N-S traffic as well. The only way to do that with a stop still at Eglinton is to route the line around the west side of Don Mills instead of the east side.

Gerrard East has also had a major decline, falling further than both Danforth and Queen East - and unlike Queen East, has yet to recover. Perhaps this has little to do with subways.

Exactly, I think it's more a symptom of the east side as a whole. There's much more at play here than just transit.

Now having said that, I really think that higher-order transit in that area could serve as a pretty powerful catalyst for regentrification. I think one of the reasons we haven't seen that on the Danforth is because the zoning doesn't really encourage it, and in some cases outright prohibits it. Developers want to maximize their return on a property like that, and only being allowed to build a 4 storey condo building isn't going to do that.

 

[nfitz]

Now having said that, I really think that higher-order transit in that area could serve as a pretty powerful catalyst for regentrification.

It could ... but I think regentrification is well underway. It's hard to find even a 1,000 ft² semi in Leslieville for much under $half-a-million any more. Prices have escalated significantly over the last 5 years since I was house-hunting. There are signs of change; the Grinder at Gerrard and Marjory, the brand-new Starbucks at Gerrard and Jones, the Good Time Fitness at Gerrard and Coxwell (surely there must be a coffee place following that), even one of those long-abandoned stores at the SE corner of Upper Gerrard and Coxwell is being renovated; surely a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker will surely follow. Though at the same time, Little India is under a lot of pressure - presumably being challenged by other options in the suburbs. There's an old myth that says when the Lahore Tikka House is finally finished, so too is Little India - and at the rate they are progressing lately, it may only be another decade!

Higher-order transit wouldn't hurt - but by the time it opens 10 to 15 years from now, I expect the process would be pretty much done already.

I think one of the reasons we haven't seen that on the Danforth is because the zoning doesn't really encourage it, and in some cases outright prohibits it. Developers want to maximize their return on a property like that, and only being allowed to build a 4 storey condo building isn't going to do that.

Agreed! Though we are starting to see changes - I'm very curious how the new condos at the SW corner of Danforth and Woodbine work out. I know many in the community dread it, but I think it's what is needed.

 

[BMO]

respectfully disagree... Yonge and Sheppard has exploded because its on yonge but equally critical its directly beside the 401... And even though there are two subways there it sure looks like the 401 has gotten much busier since all the development has happened. Makes me think that those condos translated to more drivers then Subway riders... Yonge and Lawrence or Yonge and Eglinton hasnt scene the development that Yonge and Sheppard has.. The 401 surely has something to do with this. MCC is also seeing a huge redevelopment. Guess what? its right beside a highway. Or how about all those townhouses near the Garidner from HighPark all the way to Islington... Sure the Park has something to do with it... proximity has something to do with it.. But surely the highway has something to do with it... People realize they will probably be forced to drive in toronto and as a result a highway close to home is seen as being a luxury to many people... Its no different then how other people think proximity to a subway station is important or to others in a walkable community... Anyways long story short, there is a good number of people who would like to live near a highway.. The people though that live between Eglinton and Front where the spadina expressway would have run, I would guess would not be the people who would find this accesability a bonus to their neighbourhood... Instead they are more likely to be transit users or walkers...

I agree with you fully. If I ask anybody in my family what they think of the condos at yonge and 401, they almost always first say how convenient access to the highway is as opposed to other things.

 

[BMO]

Improving the Main St-Danforth GO connection may be an easier way to handle the express demand. If price is no object, we could have a DRL with standard downtown stop spacing on a Queen alignment as well as a new underground GO station on Wellington.

GO has talked about building a new GO station under Wellington downtown. But it is planned for way off into the future.

 

[gweed123]

It could ... but I think regentrification is well underway. It's hard to find even a 1,000 ft² semi in Leslieville for much under $half-a-million any more. Prices have escalated significantly over the last 5 years since I was house-hunting. There are signs of change; the Grinder at Gerrard and Marjory, the brand-new Starbucks at Gerrard and Jones, the Good Time Fitness at Gerrard and Coxwell (surely there must be a coffee place following that), even one of those long-abandoned stores at the SE corner of Upper Gerrard and Coxwell is being renovated; surely a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker will surely follow. Though at the same time, Little India is under a lot of pressure - presumably being challenged by other options in the suburbs. There's an old myth that says when the Lahore Tikka House is finally finished, so too is Little India - and at the rate they are progressing lately, it may only be another decade!

Higher-order transit wouldn't hurt - but by the time it opens 10 to 15 years from now, I expect the process would be pretty much done already.

The thing with the regentrification now though is that it is very spread out. Yes, there is a lot of it along the main streets, but you can't really point to a few small locations and say "that's where the bulk of it is taking place". That's where I think rapid transit would help. A new subway station at say Pape and Gerrard would instantly become a focal point for the higher density regentrification in the area. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen elsewhere, but if a developer is looking at putting a ~15 storey condo somewhere in Leslieville, I would think they would choose around a rapid transit station (and I'm sure the city would be more likely to support it if it were around a rapid transit station).

Agreed! Though we are starting to see changes - I'm very curious how the new condos at the SW corner of Danforth and Woodbine work out. I know many in the community dread it, but I think it's what is needed.

It is very much a litmus test for how well higher density development will fare along the Danforth. I think there are two specific locations along the Danforth that should be densified pretty significantly: Broadview & Danforth, and Main St & Danforth. Broadview because of the proximity to the DVP, as well as having a couple pretty major streetcar routes end there. Main St & Danforth because I foresee that becoming a major hub once the Lakeshore line is electrified and running ~5 min peak headways. Two very good transit options within such a small area will make it an absolute hotspot for high density development.

 

[accura407]

I think the Danforth corridor should be left alone and continue on with medium density developments. The character of that street is unique in that it consistently maintains a similar look and feel. Furthermore, unlike underused subways in the city like Spadina or Sheppard, Bloor definitely does not NEED any more ridership...

While Yonge continues to intensify and extend downtown northerly, Bloor-Danforth is probably best as it is...an endless corridor of small business based retail and medium density/low density surrounding neighbourhoods.

Because for the most part...the equation seems to work more or less quite well along the entire stretch...Save for the outer ends of the subway line that enter suburban territory (West of Islington, East of Vic Park)

Toronto should continue to Focus on density around Spadina and Sheppard subways.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The Star reports that the projected cost of the Sheppard Subway has risen $500-million. Total is now $4.7-billion.

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1014845--sheppard-subway-cost-soars

 

[grey]

I'm betting this was all a scam to be able to zone up all the land along Sheppard and sell it off to developers. Get some coinage and connections for Ford and the Tea Party North machine.

Developers are already buying up property and applying to rezone all along Sheppard. They're not waiting for the city to impose conditions on them, so there's going to be no revenue stream. All the development applications are going to be in before they get a chance to finish the next official plan.

 

[Filip]

The Star reports that the projected cost of the Sheppard Subway has risen $500-million. Total is now $4.7-billion.

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1014845--sheppard-subway-cost-soars

What the hell? Are they paving this subway in gold??

Somehow I feel the TTC is deliberately inflating the cost of subway construction. Who would think a subway under a suburban arterial with generous right of ways for construction and decking could cost so much? Slowly I hear European cities building subways under uber dense, very old urban cores for a fraction of the cost snickering at us.

 

[Electrify]

I agree with you fully. If I ask anybody in my family what they think of the condos at yonge and 401, they almost always first say how convenient access to the highway is as opposed to other things.

I agree, but partially. I think while highway access is a plus, good transit seals the deal. MCC is also a major transit hub, and sees frequent service along the Huontario and Burnhamthorpe (I think) corridor. A major condo project near Don Mills and Steeles is close to the 404, but also has the Steeles express bus and is also a short bus ride away from Old Cummer GO Station and Fairview Mall/Don Mills Station. Finally, high density nodes near highways is not very sustainable development, as arterial roads do not have a chance to absorb the influx of traffic (heading north from the 401 at Yonge as a prime example).

 

[Dan416]

I admire Brother Ford's insistence that the city wants subways. Although I do find his role as (un-)official spokesman for his brother to be bordering on extreme levels.

that sentence doesn't really make sense does it :-/

 

[UD2]

boondoggle?

 

[M II A II R II K]

And to me it all depends on when/how extensive the upgrades to GO are. Having an S-Bahn type GO system serving Union with a multitude of different lines I think would drastically alter the travel pattern compared to having electrified trains only running every 30 minutes or so, even every 15.

A London Overground type system on the rail corridors would be great, and leave the GO Trains for express services to the 905.

 

[drum118]

You still need local service for both areas as well connecting to them.

You don't need 6-8-10-14 cars to do this as 3 EMU cars can do it, running every 10 minutes. This would see the express stops seeing service every 5-8 minutes.